Stripped of women’s records, transgender powerlifter asks, ‘Where do we draw the line?’ (Great comments section)

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[–]wecandobetter 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Can you share some comments? I'm not a subscriber so I can't read.

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Usernames couldn't copy over, but each reply begins with a posting date.

1) most liked thread

1 year ago I'm trans, MtoF, and I am stronger than most women yet haven't touched a weight in 6 years and I'm on enough estrogen to feminize a male Clydesdale. I'm sorry if these people can't understand it, but if you transition, you lose the ability to compete with natal folks. Period, end of story. And yes, idiot, it's all about exposure to testosterone. If you've ever been exposed to normal male levels of T, you can't compete with women. Natal men's T levels are 600-1200 while a "normal" natal female's are 0-60. My levels have been zero for 6 years, and I can't lose the strength, god knows I'd like to, but I can't. Can't get rid of the muscle mass either. I'm a serious progressive, but I have to be real. Transitioning means choices, and giving up the ability to compete in athletics is one of the repercussions.

1 year ago You are right, of course. I would suggest that anyone should be able to compete as a "male" athlete, regardless of gender. The "female" category should be reserved for those who never had male sex hormones building easy muscle.

1 year ago (Edited) This stuff really upsets me. I feel it puts transpeople, and specifically transwomen, in a negative light. BTW, it's "transgender" not "transgendered", and yes, she is a she, if she has done everything necessary. Becoming a female, i.e. transitioning, takes enormous amounts of resources, time, and sacrifice. Self identifying is not appropriate, one must have the appropriate surgery and be certified by a doctor. I'm sorry if hearing this isn't palatable, but if you haven't checked all the boxes, you are still a guy. Don't have the money, sorry, still a guy. Don't want to have the surgery, sorry, still a guy. we as a society have to have definitions and standards. Being a female is enormously hard and you have to give up your previous life. Powerlifting is a guy thing. She should take up running, and just enjoy life.

1 year ago I'm usually on the far liberal side on gender issues - but I do agree being under a year transitioned in your mid-forties is disqualifying. I have no issue letting her compete at meets in the female class to help form competitive bonds and participate, but she should not be eligible for records or trophies until at least 7 years of documented transitional treatment.

But I do take issue with your saying surgery is a necessary part of the equation, if you don't get it "still a guy" - that is insulting and narrow-minded - being a woman or man in society is far more than what's between your legs - it's about what's between your ears. Also, I take issue that you say powerlifting is a "guy" thing shows a disregard for the very critique of gendered behaviors that gave you a chance to exist in this world as your true self - you can think that activity is ill-suited for yourself now and a relic of who you used to be - but to determine another's personal passions as "wrong" for their gender reinforces stereotypes that we don't need in our lives. It gets weaponized very easily by the transphobic and homophobic.

1 year ago Yet what's between my ears gets discounted because of what's between my legs on a regular basis. That's what being a woman is. Can't deal with it? Don't buy the ticket.

1 year ago Just pointing out that power lifting isn’t just a “guy” thing. Women do it, too.

1 year ago

But I do take issue with your saying surgery is a necessary part of the equation, if you don't get it "still a guy" - that is insulting and narrow-minded - being a woman or man in society is far more than what's between your legs - it's about what's between your ears.

Women do not have penises. Period.

1 year ago Surgery doesn't make you female. You are still XY regardless. Female of the species are XX . Yes, there are outliers with a different combination but they are the exception.

1 year ago Even after all the surgery, every cell of that body will still be genetically male.

1 year ago Very well said, thank you. When a person makes a choice then the best thing to do is live with the consequences, not pretend that none exist.

Best wishes.

1 year ago Thank you for your comment.

1 year ago (Edited) great post, thanks. I do feel however like the lifter was cheating and was aware of it. 1 year ago Anybody who can come up with a self-deprecating wisecrack like " I'm on enough estrogen to feminize a male Clydesdale" has the ability to put things in perspective.

Thank you for a wonderful, honest, informative post—from a person qualified to give us an inside view. And thank you for sharing.

1 year ago Also trans, agree completely. After male puberty you have advantages that never go away, and it’s not fair to compete with natal women. Intersex is where the real grey area is, but for trans post-puberty transition nope nope nope. Just don’t.

1 year ago This^ As a female former collegiate athlete, I think there is a lack of understanding among some about the huge and lasting difference testosterone makes in strength and power.

1 year ago Well said. Like everyone, I too have factors that limit what I am able to do in life. For example I was born with very crappy eyesight so even though I have great vision with glasses I was unable to get a promotion I wanted into field investigative work. We are all born with limitations on what we can do: whether physical, intellectual, mental, economic, or otherwise. We all need to embrace what we can do and accept what we cannot. I think professional sports should be an area where you only compete against those whose gender you were born into. Otherwise you need to sit out the competitions.

1 year ago Thank you for the honesty and a great post. A lot of people in this world could take a reality lesson from you, much to their potential benefit.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Some other comments

2) Trans women: We are women in every way and any suggestion to the contrary is a form of violence. Also trans women: We don't mind if our actions undermine a century of progress in women's sports and the enormous benefits that have accrued to female athletes who are finally getting a limited share of the sports pie, so long as we get what we want.

With friends like this, who needs enemies?

3) "Two weeks later, she is still hurt and angry, as the larger sports world continues to wrestle with defining and imposing gender classifications, finding a balance for competition that’s both fair and inclusive."

Regardless of how Mary Gregory feels, biologically she is not a female and should not have competed against biological women because she has them at a disadvantage. I'm sure the women who competed against her were "hurt and angry" when they found out that a biological male beat them. They probably also felt cheated. There is a reason why there are separate categories for male and female weightlifters. Maybe she should petition for a 3rd category if she is truly looking for a "fair and inclusive" solution to a problem that will continue to grow as more people identify as another sex.

4) As a 54 year old recreational lifter who didn't start lifting until I was 50 and works my ass off, I can say that there is no way that any biological woman could do what she did, starting as an amateur so late in life. I simple do not buy that she had so little self-awareness that she didn't look around the gym and realize that her frame, musculature and abilities were way beyond other woman her age. One would think that someone who has transitioned would have a pretty good grasp on the biological differences that can not altered by drugs or surgery. Instead she choose to brag about awards that an ounce of self-awareness would have told her were not fairly her due.

1 year ago As a female competitive lifter, I agree with you. I completely support transgender rights and I hope there is a fair solution, but this is uncharted territory, and letting her compete in the women's division is simply not fair. She could compete in a non-drug-tested fed, but her numbers would get blown out of the water because they're simply not that high, especially for her weight class.

1 year ago If you completely support transgender rights, you must allow this. Unfortunately, most people do not see anything concerning about the transgender movement until it wanders into their backyard.

1 year ago Why must we support ignoring biology to accommodate a personal perception ? NO matter what you feel like, biology says XY are males.

1 year ago (Edited) "These chromosome are amazing! So there's males, and there's females, you say? Golly, I can't wait to start running tests on everyone so they can know which one they are." - Some scientists in the 1890s on discovering sex distinctions

Oh wait, no, sex isn't just chromosomes, biology is all kinds of complicated, and people and society are radically free.

1 year ago gadu, at first I was going to disagree with you but I gave it a second thought and realize how true this is with most things of a controversial nature. 1 year ago But in that case of competing in a different fed, would the athlete need to make claims of taking transition hormones? Or could Gregory compete with natural male physiology? Even juiced women can't compete with unaltered men.

1 year ago They all do. The cyclists, the runners, the MMA fighter, they all know they have an advantage and anyone paying attention to the results knows it. Trying to argue otherwise is absurd. Sports were so important to me growing up and still are. It breaks my heart to think of girls and women being pushed out of their own sports. The rugby team that was so important to me in college would have looked really different under these new rules.

1 year ago She’s got the ego of a male, for sure.

5) 1 year ago (Edited) I believe every person should be free to live their lives as they deem appropriate for themselves.

That said, there are aspects of life to which our bodies might not be acceptable, such as sports competitions.

Semanya, the runner from South Africa, is the perfect example. While she considers herself a female, her biology states otherwise and gives her a biological advantage over other women runners. Based on that, she has recently been disqualified from competing against women in some venues of running.

All of us can't do everything we want to do, no matter how bad it hurts.

6) 1 year ago It's been said before, correctly, but I'll say it again - A trans person, previously male identifying as a woman, competing in a sport where a male has an advantage by virtue of their natural physiology, should not be competing against naturally born women. It's not a matter of "identification" it's a matter of physiology. The average man is, in the majority of cases, bigger and stronger than the average woman. You cannot get around that, no matter what sort of post-grad social justice pretzel logic is used.

It's interesting that athletics, the one realm left where physiology and merit count above all else, leaves absolutely no room for interpretation (you either win or you don't, you're either the best or you aren't) and goofy "social justice" politricking simply has no bearing whatsoever.

[–]wecandobetter 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks! This was juicy. The general public is definitely drawing the line at sports.

[–]forwardback 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, thank you for sharing the comments!