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[–]MarkTwainiac 34 insightful - 4 fun34 insightful - 3 fun35 insightful - 4 fun -  (6 children)

I will usually get some women snap back at me saying that they personally don't mind or care if Trans-identified men use the women's restrooms and that it's not a big deal.

I tell them that shared facilities such as public, school, workplace and club toilets and changing rooms are not their personal property, so their personal feelings are immaterial. These spaces do not belong to them, so they don't get to rewrite the rules about who can access them.

Sex-segregated spaces are meant to benefit female and male people on the whole, and shared toilet facilities in particular are tailored to the very different urinary and genital anatomy and biological needs of the two sexes.

Hence, in the men's, there's both a toilet or two in an enclosure and urinals out in the open. Urinals are tailored exclusively to males, and only males, coz only they stand to pee. Urinals typically don't have privacy screens between them coz male anatomy and clothing design mean males can pee standing up without dropping their trousers and exposing their backsides and balls to all the other males who are there.

By contrast, in the women's loo there are stalls with toilets and toilet paper dispensers, coz female people have to sit to pee and we need to wipe our urethras and vulvas after peeing - we can't just give a shake the way males can with their dicks. In the ladies, the toilets are also enclosed in stalls that provide a degree of visual privacy, coz females have to bare our genitals and backsides in order to urinate.

What's more, for girls and women "using the ladies" isn't just about peeing. It's also about dealing with menstruation - and unforeseen events like miscarriages and menopausal flooding. As a result, in addition to providing some visual privacy, the stalls in women's loos are equipped with specials bins for used tampons and pads.

Due to our different anatomy and biological needs, hand-washing facilities in communal loos are more an issue for females than males. Research has shown that most males don't wash their hands after urinating in shared facilities. However, most girls and women do, coz after peeing we use our hand to wipe our "privates."

What's more, girls and women often need to wash blood off our hands after using the toilet. And sometimes, we need to use toilet washing facilities to wash blood stains - and milk stains from leaking breasts - from our clothing. This often requires removing an item of clothing - such as a skirt, school uniform, or blouse or top - and standing there at the sink and under the dryer in our undergarments. Maybe some girls and women would be perfectly fine doing all this under the watchful, perhaps prurient and leering eyes of their male schoolmates, work colleagues and/or any strange Tom, Dick or Harry off the street. But most girls and women are not fine with it; most would find it embarrassing and discomforting.

Another issue that many women face in dealing with communal toilets, particularly public ones, is how to pee when you've got a child or several in tow. Most stalls can't fit a pram or stroller, so often a mother with a baby in one - and perhaps a toddler running around too - has no choice but to drop her pants and pee with the stall door open so she can keep her eye on the kid(s).

Since the vast majority of males (88% in 2015, probably more like 98% today) who identify as trans do not alter their urinary anatomy and genitals, there's no reason why facilities designed for female anatomy would somehow be appropriate for them. Even most TIMs who are most "passable" - Blaire White, Gigi Gorgeous, Munroe Bergdorf etc - all have their dicks and balls.

What's more, whether they keep their dicks and balls or not, for males, the motivation for going trans is always sexual: most TIMs are heterosexuals with autogynephilia who desire to be women coz it brings them erotic pleasure, but they still want to have sex with women too. If what they say on social media is any indication, quite a large number of TIM TRAs are rapey. Moreover, some are convicted rapists and sex abusers; and many - Jess Bradley, Yaniv, the ones who send/sent dick pics to women like JKRowling - are flashers, voyeurs and pervs. And even most gay guys who identify as the opposite sex usually fetishize being female and have an unseemly, prurient interest in the bodies and bodily functions of female people.

In addition, most TIMs are selfish, highly narcissistic fellas who not only have little or no empathy for actual girls and women, and no understanding of our "lived experience" - they also are intent on violating the boundaries of female people, establishing their superiority to "cis girls" and demanding that we "validate" their identities. This is true even of the very small number who've had surgeries to remove their balls and reconfigure their dicks. Coz having genital surgeries and taking cross-sex hormones does not alter the mentality of these guys or make them any less male.

If some women are A-okay having males like this around when they unclothe their genitals and backsides in order to deal with private bodily matters of female anatomy, that's their choice. But most girls and women are not comfortable having to put up with men's selfishness, sexual fetishes, prying eyes, keenly listening ears and distinctly male dominance displays in spaces where we are most exposed and vulnerable. Coz most of us have an innate sense of modesty, a desire for dignity and ease of mind, and we want a few spaces where we can deal with our own bodily needs without being forced to be cheek-to-jowl with males and their sexual proclivities.

Female-only spaces designed to accommodate female biology and to provide safety, dignity and privacy are used by girls and women of all ages, and with vastly different views, needs and sensibilities. It doesn't matter if some individual women are okay with opening up these spaces to men and older boys. Lots of girls and women are not okay with it, and their rights are not for the women you speak of to give - or wave - away. It's not the place of any of us to give away the rights of others!

Laws, safeguarding policies and social customs aren't based on what any one individual person wants, and we as individuals don't get to dictate or change the norms and conditions for all of society based on our own personal feelings.

Also, I'd ask these women why is it that sex-separate toilets, change rooms and similar facilities were established in the first place. And I'd further ask them if they know the history of how these facilities came into existence as well.

I'd also ask them if they are aware of the considerable amount of thought and discussion that parents, educators, developmental psychologists and safeguarding experts have put in over the generations about such issues as: At what age is it no longer appropriate for young boys to use ladies loos and changing rooms with their moms or female carers? What is the age when most school policies say girls and boys need separate toilets and changing/locker rooms?

[–]SweetBabyCheeses 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes this. Exactly this. It’s brilliant. All I had to add was I don’t like sharing loos with blokes (eg on planes) because they have a habit of pissing everywhere and not always washing their hands. And wanking.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Good points! I hate that spunk smell that wankers leave, particularly in airplane loos. Yuk.

The issue about males pissing all over the seat and on the floor around the toilet is important: in mixed-sex loos girls and women not only have to step in male urine to use the toilet, we have to visually inspect and wipe off the seat before doing so. Which puts us in the position - once again - of having to clean up the messes males make in the most literal way. Also, the urine of males past puberty often has an awful stench!

[–]Jksmiddlefinger 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is a perfect and comprehensive answer. I’m definitely using the points listed in future!

Does anyone have any links to the history of the advent of women’s bathrooms? It’s something I’ve always taken for granted without thinking about how it came about.

[–]BEB 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Sexism in the Bathroom Debates: How Bathrooms Really Became Seperated by Sex" Yale Law & Policy Review November 2018

https://ylpr.yale.edu/sexism-bathroom-debates-how-bathrooms-really-became-separated-sex

Also do searches for the "urinary leash" - which is how lack of sex-segregated bathrooms literally kept women from leaving the house for more than a few hours and therefore out of the public sphere.

[–]Shesstealthy 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

we need to wipe our urethras and vulvas after peeing - we can't just give a shake the way males can with their dicks

Been standing and shaking a bit after a pee all my life - omg i must be a man

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sorry!

Correction: I should have said that in the West, many/most girls and women wipe with TP/loo roll. In much of the rest of the world, TP/loo roll isn't so common.