Drag Performances were always rooted in sexism (Some videos of lesbians also speaking in the 70s about this at a Gay Rally) You can see the dismissive looks from the men in the crowd...as usual.

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[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Again, some gay men are misogynistic, and they should be called out for it. Misogynistic gay men use that language. But not all gay men use that language and not all gay men who do drag use that language. And I think gay men doing drag is a completely different social context than Elizabethan England. Including completely different relative power structures.
And also, I have seen non-slutty drag. I think the performances are going to reflect what the audience wants /expects, and “women” are generally always expected to be slutty. I don’t think that’s necessarily a reflection on drag specifically.

Finally, looking at this pragmatically where I choose my battles, drag right now seems like a loosing battle that would cost more than it would gain. If we want to to fight the gender behemoth, the most pressing issue, IMO we do need (reasonable) gay men to be our allies, and going after drag, which doesn’t even register on my long list of things to care about, seems like a great way to alienate gay men.

[–]IridescentAnaconda 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I dunno. Not all gay men like drag. I find it somewhere between silly and hard-core misogynistic. Maybe it's supposed to be a caricature that reflects something other than what I find most women to be like? In any case I fail to find it entertaining at all.

But you're right: it's not a hill to die on. Drag queens in general aren't pressuring lesbians to take their "lady-dick" and aren't forcing hormones on kids (though a few of them are trying to introduce kids to drag culture and that's not OK).

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think you hit on the fact that there are at least 3-4 separate questions here: (1) Is drag inherently misogynistic? (2) Is the way drag is performed and consumed misogynistic in effect? (3) If the answer to any of the foregoing is yes, what is the impact on or the harm experienced by women as a class and as individuals? (4) Even if the answer to any of (1) or (2) is yes, do you personally care/want to do something about it? Why or why not?

Edit: I apparently deleted my edit but I’m a lesbian and do not make blanket statements about what gay men are or are not into other than that which is inherent to being homosexual. So I do not mean to imply that all gay men are into drag. But those who are tend to be in the demographic that is one of the biggest targets and victims of genderism. I can see this from within the gay community, but drag does create a community and create social power for certain gay men who are otherwise being hit with the message that they’re not really men and would have better lives if they transitioned. Many of these gay men have a really hard time finding romantic and sex partners because they are so heavily stigmatized as being effeminate, and unfortunately my eyes have been opened to the fact of what role the desire to find a partner plays in transitioning for such homosexual males.

[–]IridescentAnaconda 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Many of these gay men have a really hard time finding romantic and sex partners because they are so heavily stigmatized as being effeminate, and unfortunately my eyes have been opened to the fact of what role the desire to find a partner plays in transitioning for such homosexual males.

In my 30+ years as an out gay man I have seen plenty of "effeminate" men who were able to find male partners. Though I've never met any M2F who identified as a straight woman (once, long ago, I knew somebody who thought he was headed in that direction but I lost contact with him shortly thereafter), I find it hard to believe that there is much of a market among straight men for M2Fs, for anything other than a fuck-toy. This seems like a really bad decision to me, and one that is potentially based on deep-seated self-hatred (a belief that a gay male partner would be inferior to a straight male partner).

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yes I definitely agree it’s a bad idea and unlikely to be successful. What worries me is indications that the only reason some are getting genital surgery is to increase their chance at obtaining a male partner. Because unsurprisingly while they still have their penis and try to present as a woman they’re attracting fetishists. And they are motivated to get the surgery because they have been told by men that the reason they’re turning them down is because they still have a penis but after surgery, sure when in reality I think it’s more likely that public discourse has gotten so constrained that men felt pressured to say that. So they think the grass is greener but it’s really unlikely to be. It’s just that any information that pops this bubble is censored so heavily. It seems that the transsexuals who are happy with their transition transitioned for at least mostly internal reasons.

I also agree that straight men are not going to go for trans women but that trans women have a vested interested in viewing the men they attract as straight.