Drag Performances were always rooted in sexism (Some videos of lesbians also speaking in the 70s about this at a Gay Rally) You can see the dismissive looks from the men in the crowd...as usual.

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[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I’m going to be honest, while I see the argument, I think it’s lacking nuance. There are indeed a lot of misogynistic gay men. But a lot of drag artists are really just men looking for a fun and creative outlet for their femininity. Can you argue that their intention doesn’t matter? Sure. But I would say it does matter from my POV. Drag is just not a hill I’m willing to die on. I don’t feel satirized by it and I am probably much closer to the subject of the supposed satire than most people who flock to Gender Critical spaces.

[–]totallyrad[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I've been in drag queen spaces before and the way they talk about women is pretty damned misogynistic. Unless you don't think slurs like C*** and Fish every minute don't count. The whole point of drag in the first place was because women weren't allowed to do certain things in the past so they used a man to dress up like women and it did turn into a satire of women. If it's not mockery of women then why do they never represent women in anything other than a slutty way?

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Again, some gay men are misogynistic, and they should be called out for it. Misogynistic gay men use that language. But not all gay men use that language and not all gay men who do drag use that language. And I think gay men doing drag is a completely different social context than Elizabethan England. Including completely different relative power structures.
And also, I have seen non-slutty drag. I think the performances are going to reflect what the audience wants /expects, and “women” are generally always expected to be slutty. I don’t think that’s necessarily a reflection on drag specifically.

Finally, looking at this pragmatically where I choose my battles, drag right now seems like a loosing battle that would cost more than it would gain. If we want to to fight the gender behemoth, the most pressing issue, IMO we do need (reasonable) gay men to be our allies, and going after drag, which doesn’t even register on my long list of things to care about, seems like a great way to alienate gay men.

[–]IridescentAnaconda 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I dunno. Not all gay men like drag. I find it somewhere between silly and hard-core misogynistic. Maybe it's supposed to be a caricature that reflects something other than what I find most women to be like? In any case I fail to find it entertaining at all.

But you're right: it's not a hill to die on. Drag queens in general aren't pressuring lesbians to take their "lady-dick" and aren't forcing hormones on kids (though a few of them are trying to introduce kids to drag culture and that's not OK).

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think you hit on the fact that there are at least 3-4 separate questions here: (1) Is drag inherently misogynistic? (2) Is the way drag is performed and consumed misogynistic in effect? (3) If the answer to any of the foregoing is yes, what is the impact on or the harm experienced by women as a class and as individuals? (4) Even if the answer to any of (1) or (2) is yes, do you personally care/want to do something about it? Why or why not?

Edit: I apparently deleted my edit but I’m a lesbian and do not make blanket statements about what gay men are or are not into other than that which is inherent to being homosexual. So I do not mean to imply that all gay men are into drag. But those who are tend to be in the demographic that is one of the biggest targets and victims of genderism. I can see this from within the gay community, but drag does create a community and create social power for certain gay men who are otherwise being hit with the message that they’re not really men and would have better lives if they transitioned. Many of these gay men have a really hard time finding romantic and sex partners because they are so heavily stigmatized as being effeminate, and unfortunately my eyes have been opened to the fact of what role the desire to find a partner plays in transitioning for such homosexual males.

[–]IridescentAnaconda 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Many of these gay men have a really hard time finding romantic and sex partners because they are so heavily stigmatized as being effeminate, and unfortunately my eyes have been opened to the fact of what role the desire to find a partner plays in transitioning for such homosexual males.

In my 30+ years as an out gay man I have seen plenty of "effeminate" men who were able to find male partners. Though I've never met any M2F who identified as a straight woman (once, long ago, I knew somebody who thought he was headed in that direction but I lost contact with him shortly thereafter), I find it hard to believe that there is much of a market among straight men for M2Fs, for anything other than a fuck-toy. This seems like a really bad decision to me, and one that is potentially based on deep-seated self-hatred (a belief that a gay male partner would be inferior to a straight male partner).

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh yes I definitely agree it’s a bad idea and unlikely to be successful. What worries me is indications that the only reason some are getting genital surgery is to increase their chance at obtaining a male partner. Because unsurprisingly while they still have their penis and try to present as a woman they’re attracting fetishists. And they are motivated to get the surgery because they have been told by men that the reason they’re turning them down is because they still have a penis but after surgery, sure when in reality I think it’s more likely that public discourse has gotten so constrained that men felt pressured to say that. So they think the grass is greener but it’s really unlikely to be. It’s just that any information that pops this bubble is censored so heavily. It seems that the transsexuals who are happy with their transition transitioned for at least mostly internal reasons.

I also agree that straight men are not going to go for trans women but that trans women have a vested interested in viewing the men they attract as straight.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

But a lot of drag artists are really just men looking for a fun and creative outlet for their femininity.

I think most drag artists are men looking for a lucrative outlet for their flamboyance and histrionics that will get them lots of attention. And which will allow them to impersonate and mock 51% of the human race whilst telling themselves that we "are really just men looking for a fun and creative outlet for our femininity."

In fact, gay male flamboyance, theatricality, narcissism and playing dress up have absolutely nothing to do with femininity - which Oxford defines as "qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of women."

These men are not acting demurely, putting others first, making sure everyone else is happy and fed, fading into the background, wiping everyone's noses and asses, tending to the elderly and sick, swallowing their feelings, taking up as little space as possible, shutting the F up and suffering in silence.

To the contrary, these men are on stage saying "look at me me me" and celebrating themselves and other men like them for adopting twisted, stereotypical, superficial notions of what it means to be female and laughing their asses off as they rake in the bucks.

I've known lots of gay male drag performers over many decades. None of them was in way what I would call "feminine." They are theatrical, flamboyant, attention-seeking showboats. Funny and entertaining, often devilishly so - yes. But there's nothing female-like or feminine about them. Just like there was/is not anything feminine or female-like about Liberace, Little Richard, Harvey Feinstein back in the day or Sam(s) Smith(s) or Jacob Tobias or Alok Vain Menon today.

We have to stop describing men who dress and behave a bit differently to stereotypically macho men as "feminine." It's akin to "not like other girls."

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don’t think they’re “feminine” either, but I see this mostly as semantics based on the lack of a better word. I would also say that “feminine” is absolutely not understood to be the same thing on a man as on woman.

I barely know anything about the people you mention at the end of your post. I agree from what little I know that they are attention-seeking, not effeminate. But again, my personal experience doesn’t exactly line up with your own.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I barely know anything about the people you mention at the end of your post. I agree from what little I know that they are attention-seeking, not effeminate. But again, my personal experience doesn’t exactly line up with your own.

That's fine. I never expected that our experiences, or the experiences of any strangers on the internet, would line up.

But I am confused: I thought in your comment upthread you claimed to have special insight into the psychology and motives of gay men who do drag and to have far more authority on the subject than most of us here:

a lot of drag artists are really just men looking for a fun and creative outlet for their femininity. I don’t feel satirized by it and I am probably much closer to the subject of the supposed satire than most people who flock to Gender Critical spaces.

That statement of yours struck me as full of prejudice - I mean, how do you know what these men are looking for, and how can you tell what people who "flock to" GC spaces look and behave like? But I chose not to argue over your presumptions about GC people here. Instead, I took issue with, and attempted to debunk, just the part in which you claim that

a lot of drag artists are really just men looking for a fun and creative outlet for their femininity.

Now in response, you don't answer any of my points. Instead, in reference to my mention of long world-famous flamboyant gay men such as

Liberace, Little Richard, Harvey Feinstein back in the day or Sam(s) Smith(s) or Jacob Tobias or Alok Vain Menon today.

You say you

barely know anything about the(m).

Then how on earth are you an authority on this topic and why are you claiming to have more insight than someone like me? LOL

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have to respond to this later when I can write a full response bc I kept falling asleep while typing out my last comment to you. To be clear, the people I know little about are the new non-binary types like Alok and Tobias, and this is because I actively try to keep them off my radar though unfortunately they try to find their way in.

[–]assignedcopatbirth 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm loathe to dismiss an entire artform because of abstract generalisations about misogyny and femininity. However, you won't get much traction for the nuanced stance here or in other mostly Radfem spaces, I've tried and I just get shouted down as a male apologist. "Drag bad" is always going to be the party line... Here's an Ovarit thread with this same topic: https://www.ovarit.com/o/GenderCritical/5039/what-are-your-thoughts-on-drag-is-it-offensive it comes up around here every few weeks and plays out the same way too.

[–]hmimperialtortie 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I find it grossly offensive and agree with most of the comments in the linked Ovarit thread.