Drag, blackface and cultural appropriation

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[–]jet199 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Blackface causes selective outrage.

The darlings of the woke don't get attacked for blackface and don't even have to apologise. It's just used to attack people they already don't like or see as an easy target likely to fold quickly.

Blackface is a great tool for anti racist campaigners because it's such an easy win and can be expanded to cover so many areas outside the original concern. No one nowadays wants to see minstrels and their old fashioned songs and dance routines. There's no pain in giving the original American form of blackface up for anyone (except maybe comedians who want to be able to target everyone but they are probably problematic so best to undermine them in advance) so almost everyone can get themselves on the right side of the arguement and feel smug.

Drag isn't that because it's still very popular and gay men in a way need it to work out the anxiety and social rejection they experience over their effeminacy. Of course its horrible for women but it won't ever be an easy win like blackface because there's still a real demand for it.

The idea that one is worse than the other or that somehow it's insulting to compare blackface to drag is just because it was such an easy win many people simply haven't analysed exactly why it's damaging or insulting. They just accept that as fact, right up to thinking minstrel shows somehow caused slavery or racism because otherwise why would it get emphasised so much above other problems.

Drag doesn't cause misogyny, it reflects what's already there and then emboldens men who already dislike women.

[–]MarkTwainiac 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Drag isn't that because it's still very popular and gay men in a way need it to work out the anxiety and social rejection they experience over their effeminacy.

Sorry, but I don't think this is true. Many gay men who work, and traditionally have worked, as drag performers are not "effeminate" in real life off stage. At all.

Most gay men aren't in any way effeminate, either. Most are "regular guys." Many are hyper-masculine. This has always been the case. What's more, many gay men and gay male culture generally long have shown considerable prejudice, hostility and disdain towards those amongst them who are genuinely effeminate.

Yes, gay men often grow up feeling they are lesser than their straight male counterparts - and they often have all sorts of anxieties that stem from their feelings of inadequacy. But feelings of male inadequacy aren't the same as effeminacy.

Similarly, whilst gay boys and men often do experience rejection, most often it's coz of homophobia and other reasons. Yes, "girly" gay men get rejected due to their effeminacy. But since the majority of gay men don't come across as what used to be called "swishy," the rejection they experience can't be attributed to their supposed effeminacy. There's a whole host of reasons gay men are and feel rejected.

Just because some/many gay men feel they fail to meet conventional standards of manhood, and they have anxieties about this and suffer rejection for it, does not mean they are in any way effeminate.

Also, drag traditionally has been enjoyed, supported and celebrated not just by the minority of gay men who are indeed effeminate, but by gay men en masse, "gay culture" much more generally, and by straight and bi people of both sexes.

In my opinion, drag is a kind of male dominance display. It's a way for gay men to show - and crow - that whilst they might be on the bottom of the heap amongst the male population overall, they still are far superior to the 51% of the human race who are female. Drag is theater and comedy based on, and steeped in, misogyny.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Drag is theater and comedy based on, and steeped in, misogyny.

I'll preface this by saying I've never been a fan of drag (or most of the rest of mainstream gay culture). But I'm not so sure its a dominance display or even a caricature in the sense that its intended to mock women/womanhood.

In a sense, drag performers assume a female persona and use it to project confidence, competence, and an embodiment of creative spirit - all with a side of camp. It's doing an impression for sure, but not in a way that's really used to denigrate women/womanhood, and certainly not in the way that e.g. minstrel shows mocked blackness as inherently inferior. There's definitely context in the act, and while some "queens" are definitely just "womanface" (because some men just have no talent; i.e. essentially the same schtick as AGPs, just sans the fetishism), those aren't the types of acts that are generally applauded by the community at large.

Again, personal opinion? Drag is tacky. Utter deal-breaker if a potential date does it, even on the side. Huge turn-off on a multitude of levels.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'll preface this by saying I've never been a fan of drag (or most of the rest of mainstream gay culture). But I'm not so sure its a dominance display or even a caricature in the sense that its intended to mock women/womanhood.

So how much drag have you seen? Over what period of time? In what contexts (nightclubs, theaters, TV, movies)?

In a sense, drag performers assume a female persona and use it to project confidence, competence, and an embodiment of creative spirit - all with a side of camp. It's doing an impression for sure, but not in a way that's really used to denigrate women/womanhood, and certainly not in the way that is used to denigrate women/womanhood...

Says you, a man. As a woman who has seen a lot of gay drag since the 1970s, who has known a number of gay male drag performers and "ball scene" men personally, and who has been in their dressing rooms and other places (such as their hospital and hospice rooms during the AIDS crisis) where such men have freely spoken their minds and expressed their true feelings, I have come - reluctantly - to a very different conclusion. Gay men who do drag are putting on a theatrical display meant to be seen by other men in which the male performers "assume a female persona to project confidence, competence and an embodiment of creative spirit" by showing that even thought as gay men they are considered lowly, inferior men by most of society, they are still vastly superior to and nothing like the vile creatures that are women.

And they also do it for money. Mocking women via drag is a very lucrative gig for some gay men who otherwise don't have many job options.

[–]jjdub7Gay Male Guest Commentator 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And they also do it for money. Mocking women via drag is a very lucrative gig for some gay men who otherwise don't have many job options.

Yuh, mostly this though, agreed. I understand that different people have different perspectives, and there is definitely just some trashy womanface going on out there.

That being said, what's your take on drag kings?