all 15 comments

[–]MezozoicGay 21 insightful - 4 fun21 insightful - 3 fun22 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

As someone here said, they are basically saying: "You don't like gender stereotypes and suffering from them? Just chose one you suffering the least and change your body!", instead of adressing actual problem and abolishing gender stereotypes.

[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's so sad that all these girls and young women are so cowed, fearful and socialized to be "polite" that they can't respond to this sort of everyday sexism by saying - aloud or just inside their own heads - "fuck off" and/or flipping the bird.

Something has gone really awry when girls and women react to misogyny by making it their life's goal to change their own bodies so they look "masc" instead of putting their energies into changing society and telling males it's not okay for them to behave like sexist pigs.

Back in the 1960s, 70s and 80s, women routinely called men out for being "sexist pigs" and "male chauvinist pigs," to use the phrasing once in vogue - and a lot of guys got it. We've clearly gone way backwards.

[–]jet199 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most haven't gone backwards. I think it's specifically those meek and mild personalities who become TiFs (so much for male brains). And thankfully they are still a small minority.

Being called sweetheart has never bothered me because I've known since a teen that within a couple of seconds of meeting me no one's going to be patronising me. They don't have this assurance because they purposely act inoffensive to be likeable so they try to control people through a mixture of cunning disguise and shaming others instead. They don't realise those tactics would only work if everyone was as soft as soap like them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well that's good to know. I was feeling particularly desolate over all this today. Seems like some old-school "assertiveness training" would do these girls & young women wonders.

But the focus on changing the appearance of one's own body is just a new brand form of the looksism that has so long been a terrible drain on women's psychic energies and time. Used to be girls & women tried to escape having obviously female bodies by starving, purging, excessively exercising etc in hopes of becoming super skinny - maybe so skinny as to be invisible or slip through a crack in the pavement and be swallowed up the earth, never to be seen again. Now girls and women are trying to escape their female bodies by taking cross-sex hormones sure to be ruinous to their health and getting mutilating surgeries in hopes of fooling themselves and others into thinking they're men. It's absurd, but not in a funny way.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I was just thinking about this earlier. A lot of young girls, if they don't have femininity forced on them as children, grow up being treated normally by their male peers, they can go swimming without a shirt, etc. Kids tend to all look the same when they're really small so it's hard to tell little girls and little boys apart sometimes.

Then they hit puberty and start growing breasts. Suddenly she needs to cover up because of these things on her chest. Now her male friends treat her differently and older men start getting weird around her, hitting on her, telling her things that were just fine when she was little are now 'unbecoming' and 'not ladylike'. She's not dumb. She knows it's because she's female.

She gets her period and it's such a hush hush topic she's not allowed to talk about it. Ever. Maybe her cramps are bad. Maybe it's messy. Maybe she's had embarrassing accidents in class as her cycle regulates itself.

As she gets older, sex becomes murky and confusing. If she's straight she sees how limited many straight men's perspectives on sex are. She sees the one sided dynamic where her pleasure is largely ignored. Sex might be uncomfortable for her and her partners never bother to give her orgasms. If she's a lesbian she may not even be aware until much later in life, because only PIV sex is 'real' sex to many people, so she already has a bad view of her sexuality. Homophobia may cause her to ignore her desires for most of her life. She delegitimizes her desires, and sees that straight men are taken seriously for essentially having the same sexuality as her.

So it's no wonder so many young girls grow to resent their breasts, their vaginas, their femaleness, their same sex attraction. It's heartbreaking. Gender therapists will ask 'do you hate being called 'she'?' but will never delve into WHY a girl hates being called 'she'.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Then they hit puberty and start growing breasts. Suddenly she needs to cover up because of these things on her chest. Now her male friends treat her differently and older men start getting weird around her, hitting on her, telling her things that were just fine when she was little are now 'unbecoming' and 'not ladylike'. She's not dumb. She knows it's because she's female.

Yes, all this happens.

But something else sometimes happens too. Fact is, little girls who are fortunate to grow up with close, supportive, doting fathers, uncles, brothers and other decent older males in their lives often feel profoundly and suddenly rejected by these male figures when they start visibly developing secondary sex characteristics.

Often the men in little girls' lives who truly love them are NOT sexually interested in the girls once the girls enter puberty; nor do they necessarily see the girls now as lesser or start imposing sex stereotyped behavior standards on the girls. It's that they see their beloved little girls now as budding "young women" with obvious sexual characteristics - and as "gentleman" who honestly have the girls' best interests at heart, these decent men and older boys back off almost instinctively and try to establish boundaries so as to insure they never seem inappropriate with, or disrespectful to, the girls.

So a girl who always/often sat in daddy's lap and enjoyed snuggling with him; loved wrestling and having tickle fights with her older brothers; and spent lots of private time hanging out alone with her favorite uncle (doing things like fishing, listening to his jazz records, and learning from him how to whittle, tie knots, spit tobacco, drive a stick shift and use power tools) suddenly finds herself cut off from all this positive male attention and affection.

Now Daddy stiffens involuntarily whenever she tries to sit in his lap and even brusquely pushes her off his knee, and now on weekends when the younger kids in the family all pile into the parents bed to snuggle with dad as they've done for years, she's told she's too old. Now the older brothers she adores won't wrestle or roughhouse with her, tickle her or let her hang out in their bedrooms anymore. Her fave uncle who was teaching her about fishing, the jazz greats, knots, wood carving, spittoons, manual transmissions and power tools suddenly is always too busy to spend any special alone with her any longer.

The males in these sorts of scenarios aren't rejecting or scorning the young girls in their lives, nor do they necessarily look down on them. These decent males are trying to protect and be respectful of the girls. But the girls themselves still perceive the changed behavior of the important male figures in their lives that come at/after puberty as a profound and deeply wounding and disorienting rejection. And in my experience, most girls who get what they see as the sudden "cold shoulder" from previously loving, doting, affectionate males in their lives at/after puberty often experience this change as a profound rejection and a great loss that's injurious to their sense of self and self-worth even when their dads, brothers, uncles etc try to explain why their behavior has changed.

And of course, at exactly the time in life that young girls experience a loss of attention and affection from older males in their lives who truly care about them, these girls now find themselves getting all sorts of new kinds of attention - some of it gross and pervy, some of it just insistent and invasive, overwhelming and perplexing - from tons of other males who now see the girls as dating prospects, dehumanized sex objects, wank fodder, breeding stock and social inferiors.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Very true. I didn't grow up with a close relationship to my male family members so I overlooked this. It's a shame that the decent guys have to pull away because of that.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wasn't trying to find fault with you excellent original analysis. Was just trying to add a layer that doesn't get acknowledged or discussed much.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No worries! I didn't see it that way. I wanted to point out that aspect never occurred to me (and why), so it was a welcome addition.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've often wondered about the role that paternal distancing perceived as heartbreaking rejection by a once-doted upon daughter might've played in the very different way Atticus Finch is portrayed in Harper Lee's two American novels about him and Scout.

In "To Kill A Mockingbird," Scout is a little girl and the apple of her dad's eye - and she in turn perceives and portrays her dad in a favorable light, as a paragon of virtue, a progressive and an anti-racist. In "Go Set A Watchman," Scout is 26, now goes by her birth certificate name Jean Louise, and she sees her dad Atticus in a much more negative light. In her adult eyes, Atticus is a racist segregationist who believes that "states rights" give the whites who control and live in the US Southern states should not be bound by the rulings of the US Supreme Court, and that the federal government should not intervene in the South on behalf of black people's civil rights.

I know that both novels were written when Harper Lee was an adult, and that "Watchman" was written before "Mockingbird," though "Mockingbird" is the only one Lee chose to publish. "Mockingbird" came out in 1960, and "Watchman" was only published 55 years later - after Lee's death, without her consent and perhaps against her wishes.

One of the things that really struck me about the two books is that the POV and feelings of Scout/JeanLouise towards her father seem to have shifted enormously from one book to the other, as Michiko Kakutani noted in the NY Times:

"Somewhere along the way, the overarching impulse behind the writing also seems to have changed. Watchman reads as if it were fueled by the alienation of a native daughter—who, like Lee, moved away from small-town Alabama to New York City—might feel upon returning home. It seems to want to document the worst in Maycomb in terms of racial and class prejudice, the people's enmity and hypocrisy and small-mindedness. At times, it also alarmingly suggests that the civil rights movement roiled things up, making people who "used to trust each other" now "watch each other like hawks

"Mockingbird, in contrast, represents a determined effort to see both the bad and the good in small-town life, the hatred and the humanity; it presents an idealized father-daughter relationship (which a relative in Watchman suggests has kept Jean Louise from fully becoming her own person) and views the past not as something lost but as a treasured memory."

[–]missdaisycan 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

very quiet thank you

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

She gets her period and it's such a hush hush topic she's not allowed to talk about it. Ever. Maybe her cramps are bad. Maybe it's messy. Maybe she's had embarrassing accidents in class as her cycle regulates itself.

I'm so sorry that this is how many girls are being raised. When I got my period at age 11 in 1965, my experience was quite different. It wasn't hush hush. At all. On the contrary, my father announced it at the dinner table and opened champagne so the whole family could make a toast to me and celebrate this passage in my life and the fact that I was one major step closer to adulthood. As I'm sure you can imagine, this was embarrassing in its own way.

In my family - perhaps because it was a large one with lots of daughters and my parents were Roman Catholics - there was no shame or queasiness about periods. There was no taboo about talking of them. Nor was there any pressure to hide them. My father used to quip that if our family were to have a coat of arms, it would consist of two Kotex pads criss-crossed rather than swords. He was sent to the drugstore so many times to get sanpro for us he'd say he might as well hang a Kotex from the car antennae (this was a long time ago, before adhesive pads and wings - so the pads had long pieces of cloth on each end to hook 'em to a sanitary belt, and cars still had metal antennae sticking up off the hood).

Still, even if there is no period shaming or taboos about period talk, periods are a huge change in a girls' life. For all the reasons you cite. And coz even when a girl or woman feels comfortable talking about her period pains and problems, and no one tries to shut her up, the fact is that the world - and the medical profession in particular - do not take girls and women's accounts of period pain seriously. I personally had horrible cramps my whole life, but no one took my reports seriously until after I gave birth and went through a rough labor and delivery in my 30s. Once I said the pain I experienced for 5-7s days every few weeks was as bad as the labor my ob-gyn considered extremely difficult, she finally started taking my complaints about menstrual cramps more seriously.

[–]missdaisycan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ah, the "sanitary belts". Before advanced adhesives. Weren't they lovely? God help you if you snugged the front catch/teeth too close. Lmao

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

LOL, you're right! Getting pubes snagged in the sanitary belt hook/clasp - ouch! Now that would've been a practical reason to argue for getting rid of female pubes, but somehow that idea didn't occur to most of us back then. Had it been suggested, most of the girls & women I knew/know would've been horrified at the prospect. Just as we are today now that we're old and our pubes are falling out all on their own.

[–]BEB 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If you know anyone considering transition, please ask them to check out the Detransition Advocacy Network. It's a global nonprofit, with local chapters, started by detransitioners,

They can have honest conversations with people who know what it's like to transition and also what it's like to deeply regret transitioning.