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[–]yousaythosethings 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

These are the kind of parents that give their daughters a “gender neutral” name like Elliot, James, Kyle, etc. so they’ll be perceived as “strong.” Oh wait they’re always just boys names. Funny that no gender neutral name ever starts out as a girl’s name. I wonder why that is.

[–]blargus 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Dana, Alex, and Sam are neutral. At a previous job I had a male coworker named Stacy.

[–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Dana is actually a good example of the phenomenon that I’m talking about. It started out as a boy’s name and then people started using it for girls. Once a boy’s name starts getting more associated with girls than with boys it becomes all but abandoned (or close to it) as a boys name. Another example is Morgan.

Sam and Alex are different because they’re generally nicknames not a given name.

Edit: Part of my point is that we never see this in reverse. Where are the male and non-trans-identified Elizabeths, Catherines, and Emilys?

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I take your overall point. But actually, there were girls named Dana and Elliott for many, many generations long before the current wave of genderism due to family tradition. Wasn't common, sure, but it did happen. Lots of male Lesleys and Leslies going way back too.

Once a boy’s name starts getting more associated with girls than with boys it becomes all but abandoned (or close to it) as a boys name. Another example is Morgan.

Are you saying Morgan is no longer seen as (possibly) male, and is no longer being given to male children?

[–]yousaythosethings 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I’m really confused because I thought Leslie was also historically a male name first. Also Kelsey. What appears to be the case is that slightly softer sounding male names became coopted over time and became mostly or almost exclusively female names. I would be curious if anyone has any examples of the opposite happening.

In any case, as it seems you agree, at minimum, names that were frequently used for both end up becoming mainly girls’s names over time, and the reverse does not seem to happen. Because it’s femininity that parents of boys and girls are fleeing from.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, though I'd say it's the association with the female that parents of boys are fleeing from. And you're right, Lesley and Leslie were traditionally male names. I thought that's what I was saying. Sorry I wasn't clear. (And Leslie Howard was considered quite a male heart throb in his day, though in an entirely different way to his peer & co-star Clark Gable.)

But Kim and Robin used to be very common male names in the Anglophone world too - and those have more of a hard sound than a soft one. And Frances & Francis, also once very common, both sound exactly the same; it's only when written that there's a difference. Similarly, when I was growing up in the 1960s there were plenty of kids of both sexes who went by Ricky, Jackie, Bobby and Charlie.

My point was simply that the trend of girls being given "neutral" or "male" names, or adopting them for themselves, predates the current trans craze by generations.

Most educated people have long been aware that girls and women will be subject to sex discrimination based solely on our names. Hence the long tradition of female authors - from George Eliot to the Bronte sisters in the 19th century to JK Rowling much more recently - adopting male pseudonyms so their books will get published and widely read. And the long tradition of girls going by names like "Scout" in "To Kill A Mockingbird" or George Kirrin in Enid Bly's "The Famous Five" novels.

The author of "We Need to Talk About Kevin" changed her name to "Lionel" Shriver more than 50 years ago. I knew an American woman (who'd be about 120 by now were she alive) who changed her name to "Vlad" in the early 20th century. One of my grandmothers was always known as "Fred" for some reason when her given name was Gertrude.

[–]yousaythosethings 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes totally agree and that it predates the trans craze. I think the point I was trying to make in my very first comment is that “gender neutral” parenting of kids is often just aversion to femininity with respect to girls rather than an aversion to femininity being forced on a girl. I think on the boys‘ side it’s more likely to be “choose your own adventure” for them.

[–]chrysthefeminist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I remember an actress named Michael Learned.

[–]chrysthefeminist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lynn was also a historically male name. And Carroll.

[–]ShieldMaiden 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Meredith is another example. And Ashleigh/Ashley.

[–]yousaythosethings 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just noticed that you mentioned Stacy. The only male Stacy’s I’m aware of are both black and American. Sample size of 2, so could be a total coincidence. I don’t know the history of the name but also wouldn’t be surprised if it started out as a boy’s name.

[–]MsTig0 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's Stacy Keach, the actor who played über-masculine detective Mike Hammer.

[–]chrysthefeminist 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

At a previous job I had a male coworker named Stacy.

Once I had one named Fran.