My answer to "Women's Shelters are Transphobic" turned into a mini-essay so I thought I'd post it here

submitted by assignedcopatbirth from self.GenderCritical

Context: This person said JKR was transphobic because she'd have "trans people thrown out of women's shelters." We went back and forth for a bit and it ended like this.

They said: people are also abused by their parents. So no elderly or middle aged women in the shelters either? Just because a person was abused by a man does not give them the right to say a trans woman should not have the same rights as a woman. Shelters are being trained to turn away trans people, people who pay taxes so these shelters don’t have to. Also the woman you are referencing who tried to get it shut down, was trying to be a counselor. She was trying to help and got turned away because of who she was and things she couldn’t change.

I said: Your comparison with parents doesn't line up, sadly. Shelters are for protection from violence. People are abused by their parents when they're kids. Kids DO get allocated safe spaces in shelters when it's possible and there are also kids-only shelters. Because they are vulnerable around adults.

A women's shelter turning away middle-aged or elderly women because they're "parental age" doesn't make sense, because middle-aged people aren't significantly stronger or more violent than younger adults.

Can a grown man go to a center for street children and say "You have no right not to let me stay here, just because you feel unsafe around me. This is my right!"? No.

It doesn't matter if that man trying to get into the street kid's shelter paid his taxes. That shelter is not for him. My taxes pay for the public zoo but I'm not trying to live there either.

The fact that the VRR shut down was arranged by someone who wants to be a counsellor is even more terrifying. One moment this person wants to help rape survivors, the next they'll try to get the whole center shut down? Does that person sound like they care about rape survivors to you? "These women don't want to tell me about the worst day of their lives, and instead of being an adult and looking for another place that wants my skills, I'll try to take their entire safe space away from them." is that a healthy way to think? I wouldn't want counseling from that person.

You say "so it isn't about women's rights or helping them" but it is. Keeping female only spaces alive helps women at their most vulnerable.

I agree that trans people obviously need help with homelessness, mental health, abuse etc. But I'll ask again - why isn't the huge mission of trans activists to create these resources? To build these spaces?

Why is the focus always on planting a flag in spaces and resources that women built for women? And then vilifying those women for defending them?

Women are allowed to have boundaries. Women are allowed to say no. It's not bigoted to fight for women's rights. Misogynist men have been calling that 'misandry' for hundreds of years and it hasn't stuck. Now it's called 'transphobia' and that won't stick either. Women's rights are human rights.

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[–]denverkris 22 insightful - 14 fun22 insightful - 13 fun23 insightful - 14 fun -  (1 child)

"My taxes pay for the public zoo but I'm not trying to live there either."

lmao

[–]lefterfield 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I love that line too.

[–]MarkTwainiac 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Good essay!

Also the woman you are referencing who tried to get it shut down, was trying to be a counselor. She was trying to help and got turned away because of who she was

The person who made this claim is an eejit. And not operating in good faith.

Fact is, the fella who sued VRR for nixing his bid to be a counselor was not "trying to help." That's just what he claimed. In actuality, he was trying to get himself in a position where women who had just been traumatized by the men who raped them would be forced to recount the details of their rape traumas to another man, thus possibly/most likely subjecting the women to more trauma.

This man wanted to be in this position coz he relishes hearing about girls and women being violently abused, degraded, humiliated, sexually subjugated by males. He gets off on it, both psychologically and probably sexually too.

Nope, it wasn't an attempt to help - it was a power play, an assertion of male dominance that reflected cruelty, self-interest and prurience, not empathy, concern for vulnerable females or respect for women's boundaries, privacy, and wellbeing.

[–]assignedcopatbirth[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That is terrifying. I was suspecting that this person wasn't arguing in good faith but I try to have the benefit of the doubt and assume they're just uninformed and haven't thought these things through.

And at least if they were calmly trolling me, others in the comments (it was in a youtube comments section) would see it play out and maybe start thinking for themselves.

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's a very good attitude to take. It's hard to change anyone's mind in an argument, because most people instinctively become defensive about their beliefs. But observers don't have that defensive reaction, so if you argue your case well, you're likely to reach at least some of them. The hard part is to keep doing it when you don't necessarily see any results.

[–]Erised 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I find it ironic and disheartening that trans organizations and activists recognize the importance of setting boundaries and having their own spaces while at the same time trying to invade, attack, defund, and shut down women-only spaces and organizations like VRR are for doing the exact same thing for the safety and well-being of the people they are trying to help.

A few years ago, I looked into being a volunteer operator for a trans suicide support hotline. However, it wouldn’t be possible for me to be a hotline operator because the very first rule for being an operator was “Be trans.”

I’ll be honest, it stung a little to be faced with such a hardline exclusion when all I wanted to do was help. They would be training all volunteers on how to counsel callers to the hotline, why wouldn’t that training be enough for me to help? Why didn’t they want MY help? But rather than lawyering up, dragging this organization to court, paying thousands of dollars in legal fees, and wasting years and years in court, I sat down and had a two second think. And that’s when I realized, “oh yeah, if I were trans and in the middle of a CRISIS, I’d want to speak to someone who was trans.” I’d feel much safer opening up to someone like me and reliving traumatic experiences with someone who has gone through those experiences.

It’s wild to me that in certain circles it’s taboo to recognize that women have very different life experiences/ concerns than trans women do, and therefore need different/ their own spaces and resources. And this isn’t to say that trans people don’t have legitimate concerns, because they do. But like you said in your (amazingly written might I add) essay, the focus seems to have shifted in the last five years or so from establishing resources and spaces for trans people to taking over the spaces and priories of women’s organizations— many who have spent years and years of hard work to build themselves up.

[–]assignedcopatbirth[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes exactly! Trans people are allowed to have boundaries and women aren't. That's the bottom line.

I'm sorry you couldn't get the volunteer job you wanted, but your approach to it was a sane, rational one! You could have made it into a vendetta and tried to bully your way into that position (though it would've been pretty easy if you just called them back and said "Well, I'm genderqueer now! When do I start?")

[–]TurtleFuzz 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Nicely said.

[–]assignedcopatbirth[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you! I'm working on being less angry when having these conversations.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Huzzah!

[–]Spicylikegumbo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Perfect rebuttal. I am pretty sure the person had another stupid response, but you made very clear and valid points that anyone with a working brain should understand.

[–]assignedcopatbirth[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah you called it, their reply was "uuuh just say you hate trans people and go" which was pretty much my bad-faith cue.

[–]divingrightintowork 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Based - good comparison about children's shelters!

[–]assignedcopatbirth[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks!