all 13 comments

[–]buttbuttinator 57 insightful - 6 fun57 insightful - 5 fun58 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

Another campaigner, Mathieu Stoclet, pointed out the "incoherence" of the woman being recognised as female by the French system, but at the same time as the child's father.

Hmmm, you're right. Maybe they shouldn't recognize them as being female? That would solve the entire issue.

[–]MezozoicGay 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Confusion over confusion, when words mean nothing.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 14 insightful - 7 fun14 insightful - 6 fun15 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Shut up, you' re being reasonable and logical!!! Two things that don' t go well with kissing trans people' s asses!

[–]worried19 25 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

She's the child's legal parent. She's not being denied rights to the child. The child can still call her Mom. I don't get why endless amounts of money and time are being spent on something so trivial. It's just to prove a political point. What real-world effect does it have? I'm open to being convinced this is somehow necessary, but as far as I can tell, this parent is in a privileged position with enshrined legal rights already.

[–]MarkTwainiac 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

People like this seem to be intent on taking every possible step to make other people and the world at large bend to their will in order to "validate" their chosen identity.

In this case, the father is on a power trip over both the government and his child. He's trying to make the state body that operates the official registry of births recognize/record him as the child's mother. Worse, he's trying to create situation where his own child will have to go through his/her entire life using an identity document that states and perpetuates the lie that his or her father is really his/her mother.

It's a real mind-fuck for the kid, coz a BC is the most important ID document of one's life, as it establishes citizenship and all the rights that flow from citizenship. And coz it's the ID document that other ID documents and official records and papers like passports, school registration and records, social security cards, voter registration/rolls, government benefits, health care system ID, conscription, pensions are all based on.

Dunno if France requires marriage licenses, but the child's BC could affect that too - in some places you have to provide your BC to get a marriage license. In some places, like the UK, you have to put your father's name and occupation on the marriage registry too. (A tidbit I know from when Jerry Hall married Rupert Murdoch.)

Per usual, the narcissism of the trans person is off the charts in this case: registering a child's birth is supposed to be principally for the benefit of the child, not the parents, and for the benefit of the government so it can do long-range planning. A birth certificate is supposed to belong to the child to establish the facts of the child's birth and parentage; it's not meant as a parental identity document or validation device.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I looked a bit more into the importance of government record-keeping in France. Turns out, "civil registration" of births, marriages and deaths is quite a big deal there, in part because during the French revolution in 1792, one of the ways the new government established its authority and destroyed the previous hegemony of the Catholic church and clergy was by wresting responsibility for recording major life events away from parish priests and making the recording and keeping of "vital records" the job of the new French republic.

Civil registers are the vital records made by the government. Records of births, marriages, and deaths are commonly referred to as "vital records" because they refer to critical events in a person's life.

The "vital records" kept by the government in France are known, and prized for, their accuracy and detail. Birth and marriage records give much more information about the parties involved than in many other places (such as the USA, where my own such records are from).

Traditionally, French birth records have contained the following:

the child's name, sex, date and place of birth, and the name of the parents, including the mother's maiden surname parents of a single mother The records may provide additional details, such as:

the age of the parents, occupation of the father, or place of origin of the parents

Moreover, traditionally in France

Births were usually registered within two or three days of the child's birth, usually by the father, but sometimes by a relative or friend, especially if the father was absent.

When a marriage is registered in France, info about both couple's mothers and fathers - and sometimes their grandparents too - is recorded. French marriage records contain, amongst other info:

the birth date and birthplace of the bride and groom their parents' names, including mother's maiden surname. if the parents have died, their death date and death place are recorded. more recent civil marriage records may even include the same information for the grand-parents usually four witnesses listed, with their age, occupation, residence, and relationship. the complete birth information of the couple's children who are born out of wedlock

Death records in France traditionally have included the names of the decedent's mother and father (including mother's maiden surname), and whether or not the parents are also deceased.

What's since 1877, there's a practice of married couples and families keeping civil registration booklets (livrets de famille) that the civil registrar fills out and gives to each couple the registrar marries.

This booklet includes an extract of the marriage record and references to the marriage contract. The couple was responsible for taking the booklet to the registrar as each of their children was born. The registrar would update the booklet with the child's birth information and return the booklet to the parents. The registrar also recorded deaths in this booklet. Families keep possession of their family civil registration booklets and often hand them down to their children.

So in this case, the TIM father really is trying to challenge the authority of the French republic and government in a fundamental way.

What's more, he's trying to make sure not just that the lie that he is his child's mother rather than the father will follow the child throughout his/her life, but that this lie will be repeated, re-recorded and further memorialized on the vital records not just of the child's birth, but of the child's own marriage(s) and death too.

Which IMHO is incredibly cruel to the child and shows that the father is on a power trip trying to bend reality to his will, and has not one ounce of concern for the mental and emotional wellbeing of his child. His aim isn't just to rewrite the history of his child's birth - he's trying to have the last word on other major events in this child's life history that haven't happened yet.

This is a naked, outrageous attempt of this man to exert patriarchal control over his child that the child will never be able to escape.

Finally, the "vital records" in France are all automatically digitized and made part of a national database that eventually is put online and can be easily searched. So at some point in the future, this child's birth certificate will become a document all the world can see.

https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/France_Civil_Registration-_Vital_Records#General_Historical_Background

[–]Marsupial 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The real-world effect is personal affirmation/validation for transwomen. If they can call themselves mothers and usurp motherhood, which is pretty much the essence of femininity, surely they are "actual women".

It's all about their narcissism. The best society can do is to not go along with the delusions because they won't stop. And by "not go along" I mean, don't give them an X for gender instead of M/F, don't tell them they're women, don't provide affirmation for their belief that they are women. Acknowledge them as the men they are and refuse to play along.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

clears throat

Regardez mooooooooooi!

[–]owmygenderfeels 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He wants attention.

Well, more than that: he wants control.

[–]OvetIt 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

"Her male reproductive organs" how transphobic.

[–]our_team_is_winning 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

<Born male, the applicant was recognised as a woman by French authorities in 2011. She then had a child with her wife in 2014, >

Biologically impossible. Two women cannot produce a child together. We ALL know that. Therefore, if he was able to FATHER a child, he was not a woman. French authorities never should have recognized him "as a woman." They had no legit grounds for doing so. French authorities should sentence themselves to hard labor.

[–]BEB 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You don't say...

WTF have we come to.

[–]Cicerosolo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

said Bertrand Perier of the APGL association of gay and lesbian parents... More like AGP association