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[–]MarkTwainiac 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

In the early 19th Century, more women than ever were getting paid work and getting involved in civic affairs. But still, American building designers faced a strange paradox: how to create public spaces that both accommodated women but still kept up the ruse of women being relegated to the home.

The solution they came up with was to segregate public space. They designed ladies-only train cars, ladies-only dining rooms, and ladies-only waiting rooms.

LOL, does this person know that the early 19th century was the early 1800s? Yeah, "more women than ever were getting paid work" - as cleaners, cooks, various types of maids, laundresses, wet nurses, governesses, prostitutes ... And since most of the politicking back then was done in pubs and saloons, I guess working as barmaids counts as "getting involved in civic affairs."

And does this person know that there weren't ladies only train cars in the early 1800s coz there weren't any railways with what today we'd call "trains" or recognize as "passenger train cars" yet? In the early 1800s, everyone was still traveling by horseback and by horse-drawn carriages and coaches. Like everyone does in Jane Austen novels from back then.

Also, in the 19th century, Americans - particularly not "American building designers" - were not leaders in railway technology, car design or station design. They pretty much just copied what the British and Europeans did. And rail cars were designed and made by coach companies, not guys who designed and constructed buildings.

"Railways" in the early 1800s meant tracks along which horses could pull coaches and "cars" full of goods (like in a coal mine).

Horsetrain from Britain's first passenger "railway" service, which opened in 1807: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rail_transport_in_Great_Britain#/media/File:Horsetrain_1870.jpg

When the first steam-engine powered trains were introduced, they were known as "iron horses" and were used mainly to move heavy goods like coal short distances. It was decades after the first "iron horse" type trains appeared that passenger service was instituted:

https://tringlocalhistory.org.uk/Railway/c01_early_railways.htm

https://regency-explorer.net/horseandtrain/

It wasn't until well into the mid-19th century that passenger travel in steam-powered iron horse-type trains really began to take off. But even then, it wasn't like suddenly everyone was traveling on them - or that the "cars" of those trains resembled the train cars of the later Victorian era and today.

In the US, the first passenger train service was begun by the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad in May 1830, initially using horses to pull train "cars." Here's a picture of what a steam train and "train cars" looked like in the USA in 1831:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_railway_history#/media/File:DeWitt_Clinton_(locomotive).jpg

At mid-century, people in the technologically-advanced countries of the Western world still customarily did most of their traveling by horseback and in horse-drawn carriages. Railways were primarily for heavy freight, like granite, timber, coal, other commodities and raw materials like cotton, as well as large amounts of manufactured goods. As the famous novels the Brontes published in 1847 show. Even late in the 19th century, people still did much of their traveling by horseback and coach, not by train, as the novels of Thomas Hardy show.

First-class British rail coach, 1840s: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnnyenglish/4160693393

In the 1840s, one of the world's biggest commuter train systems, New York's Long Island Railroad, had wooden passenger cars shaped liked today's train cars, but the walls only went halfway up and there were no seats. Very much like a cattle car.

In the US, the time when the most track was laid across the country was the middle to late 19th century. The first cross-country track was completed in 1869. Passenger compartments similar to the "passenger train cars" of today - meaning long rectangular boxes that were fully enclosed with padded seats first came along in the 1860s and 70s.

https://railroad.lindahall.org/essays/rail-cars.html

Ladies-only train cars became a thing in the UK late in the 19th century, and it was coz of a) women's second-class status in society; b) the prevalence of male sex predators assaulting female passengers; and c) the fact that the design of train cars at the time gave women being preyed upon no way to escape or summon help.

In the 19th century the ladies-only carriage was a reflection of the gender-segregation of Victorian public life and the lack of autonomy women often had within it (an 1862 guide to using the railways had a section entitled 'sending females' by rail, which rather demonstrates popular attitudes). They were also a reaction against numerous and recurring cases of sexual assault. British carriages were usually divided into compartments from which escape in an emergency was difficult. Before 1868 emergency cords were not legally required, and thereafter frequently malfunctioned. Consequently, female passengers could be at risk of serious assault with little prospect of help.

The most infamous incident occurred in 1875. Colonel Valentine Baker was a noted army officer, brother of explorer Samuel Baker, and friend of the Prince of Wales. He was also a sexual predator. While sat in a first-class compartment with 22 year old Rebecca Dickinson, Baker indecently assaulted her. Dickinson, unable to raise the alarm, climbed out of the window of the moving train, remaining half outside and half inside as Baker clung on to her, travelling for five miles until the train stopped at the next station. Baker was arrested and charged with indecent assault, dismissed from the army, and publicly disgraced. Dickinson was largely physically unharmed, but in other incidents women suffered serious injuries or death. In the wake of these there were widespread demands for separate ladies-only accommodation to prevent attacks from happening.

However, demands usually came from paternalistic middle-class men, not women. An 1896 correspondent calling himself 'Paterfamilias' explained that 'scarcely a week passes without one's reading of some more or less horrible outrage on the railway, and it should be the spontaneous act of every company to provide reserved accommodation by every train and for every class of carriage.' But among women the accommodation was strikingly unpopular. In 1888 only 248 of 1,060 ladies-only seats in a given period on the Great Western were used, with 5,141 women travelling in smoking compartments instead. The London, Tilbury & Southend ran all their trains between 1877 and 1882 with 'women and children only' compartments, but removed them due to unpopularity. The majority of companies had abolished permanent ladies-only accommodation; instead female passengers could request a compartment be designated Ladies-only. But requests were rare. Despite demands following each 'outrage', women simply didn't want the accommodation.

This low use had multiple causes. Families competed for space with single women, many of whom did not want to share with children. One correspondent explained 'women are, as a rule, very fond of their own children, but I for one draw the line at other people's children […] when they behave like little monsters.' The compartments became associated with stereotypical old-fashioned spinsters, with young women especially avoiding them. Safety concerns remained. Most women preferred to travel in standard accommodation with a few other people than alone in ladies-only, where male attackers could and did still gain entry.

The compartments also generated a discourse that the modern reader would consider 'victim blaming'. An 1875 newspaper promoting Ladies-only argued 'It is incumbent upon the gentler sex not to lay themselves open to the gibes and sneers of the vulgar upon such a point as this, and the sooner they do so the better, or they will be the victims of retaliation.' In short, travel in a ladies-only carriage or you deserve what you get. This kind of attitude is utterly unacceptable today, but ladies-only carriages act to reinforce it. Emphasis is placed upon potential victims to avoid assault rather than dealing with the cause of the problem, a regular criticism of ladies-only carriages in operation in other countries.

Ladies-only also became the target of ire for male passengers, annoyed at having to squeeze into overcrowded carriages when the Ladies-only were empty. The Metropolitan abandoned Ladies-only after a year because of male complaints. Other men began to demand full gender segregation, with one correspondent arguing 'Men mostly travel in silence; women […] talk almost incessantly. In the name of humanity let them have carriages reserved to themselves, but also let us men have carriages reserved to ourselves.' While Ladies-only was intended to provide a refuge for women, the result was the actions of female passengers came under scrutiny, with many women reporting hostile reactions from male passengers when they tried to travel in other parts of the train.

https://www.historytoday.com/sending-females-rail-history-women-only-carriages

[–]TurtleFuzz[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Your replies are always so informative, I love reading them lol

Maybe men nowadays think that because women are out and about in their space, that must mean we don't want our own space! Because we all know how that went down with "women-only train cars"!

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Glad to be of service! And to provide enjoyment, too. I very much appreciate your kind comment.

[–]Cicerosolo 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Great post. I love the history of industrial revolutions and I think you have a great way of sharing heaps of knowledge succinctly

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you! You are quite kind to take the time to say that. I too love the history of industrial revolutions - and pretty much the history of everything else.

[–]vitunrotta 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed - love your comments! Keep them coming, I always feel like that "mind blown" gif when I'm finished reading. :D

[–]jelliknight 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You ought to start a youtube channel or something. You have a lot of valuable information to share, you could be making advertising $ right now ;)

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are so kind, Jelli, and I am flattered.

[–]TruBi 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So I read the whole article. They focused on wanting a more inclusive design of bathrooms to accommodate trans, non-binary, and disabled people. They argue that trans people are not safe in public restrooms.

It’s a boring debate where white Tims are pretending to be oppressed because other men are attacking and abusing black TIMs in bathrooms. Where Jessicx with short blue hair feels like women who glance at her in the bathroom equates to physical violence.

The way I see it is that these types of articles pretty much are just a way to get men to use the same bathroom with women. Maybe someone out there can make a decent argument for unisex bathrooms. But this article does a weak job at it, imo.

[–]TurtleFuzz[S] 13 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I think it's gross that TIMs try to latch onto other groups of people and opt into their suffering for their own benefit. The argument this author makes is that women should be using unisex bathrooms because women "used" to be opposed and now we're not? It just made me scratch my head and wonder if I read it wrong lol

[–]Shesstealthy 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If both sexes benefit from and are safe in shared facilities, why aren't nonGC people? You can't have it both ways unless you want special non GC toilets which will just draw attention to them. Personally I'm a huge fan of individual lockable unisex facilities with floor to ceiling doors and walls.

[–]fireweed 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If men are not safe from OTHER MEN in their bathrooms, then that's a problem men, and only men, need to solve. This does not involve women at all, and women are not human shields to protect men from other men.

TIMs: "We can't use the bathroom with men because men are so violent." Women: "We can't use a bathroom with men because men are so violent." TIMs: "I don't get it." YES. YOU. DO.

[–]missdaisycan 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

[–]TurtleFuzz[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing. I now understand the history of separate bathrooms, but I'm still not convinced the author of this article thinks that keeping them separated is a good thing. Like, do they still think wanting separate bathrooms is "so 19th century"? It seems that way.

[–]MezozoicGay 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

[–]TurtleFuzz[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is great, thank you so much!

[–]jet199 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

[–]TurtleFuzz[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That's definitely an interesting read, thanks for sharing. I can understand why men didn't want women to have bathrooms to try and keep them at home.

But I don't think that most women today would want all unisex bathrooms? The author claims that since men and women are allowed in public spaces together, that means we should move past these archaic notions of women wanting a "protected space where they could rest". It just seems so weird to me.

[–]VioletRemi 19 insightful - 5 fun19 insightful - 4 fun20 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Considering that unisex bathrooms are ones where majority of rape cases in bathrooms are happening, it is more safety measure. And, well, I don't think I will be changing my tampons in men's toilet (unless no other way).

[–]GConly 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

"protected space where they could rest

It wasn't about having somewhere to rest, about was about somewhere you could feel safe pulling your knickers down without perverts trying to get a look at you.

If you go on a self defence course public bathrooms get named as a dangerous area anyway. You go in there, hidden from sight, men can lurk in the cubicles.

The last thing we need are public facilities where men have a good excuse to wait around for victims. Having unisex loos will increase opportunistic offending and harassment.

[–]jelliknight 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Near me there's a women's bathroom which was built on land bought by a group of local women. Farmers would come in and go to the pub, which women weren't allowed in. They had no access to bathrooms, and had to just wait for their husbands. So they bought land and built some rooms which included bathrooms. Many public women's bathrooms started like this. Public bathrooms were in men-only spaces and women were disallowed, so women created their own.

[–]TurtleFuzz[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's really interesting, thanks so much for sharing!

[–]ANIKAHirsch 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They forgot to mention why women's restrooms were codified. Originally, all public bathrooms were men-only.