all 20 comments

[–]slushpilot 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Your friend has taken great effort to erect a very carefully balanced tower of ideas in order to be able to see things this way, which allows her to align everything along the particular axis of sex or race that suits her worldview best.

A tall woman is not "more male" — that's a completely different axis.

[–]Skipdip[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hey check out my response if u have the time and feel free to critique and mention things I should add

[–]missdaisycan 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Your friend is unconcerned for herself. Great. But she doesn't care about other girls and women. The females whose life experiences are or will be different from hers. Like domestic violence victims, rape victims, incarcerated women, or the eight year old girl daddy sends into the locker room alone at the"club" to use the toilet. A small number of these guys can do a lot of trauma. Clearly the number of emboldened AGPs is increasing. Good luck. Remember, you can't change someone's belief system, but you may nudge/poke it a little.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sigh yes, it does seem so... she is a college professor though. So id hope reason would be enough. What do you think about my response? I haven’t sent it yet

[–]missdaisycan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Initially uncomfortable with the race analogy, I kept in mind your friend's own emphasis, and respect that you would know her to speak to her interest. Well laid out, presented, IMO.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To be honest the race analogy makes me uncomfortable as well. I’m not sure it would go over well, as it may hit a sore spot. We are not that close, she was my teacher in high school and we remain fb friends. But I think I did it in such a way that clearly opposed racism, and did not misrepresent it. But please honestly please do tell me if I did misrepresent it in some way. I am not black so do not have depth of experience about the black American experience.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Fausto-Sterling said publicly (& quite along time ago the the first time) that she was being facetious in that paper. In February 2020, she reiterated this when she tweeted that this much-ballyhooed paper of hers on "the five sexes" was "tongue-in-cheek." So a joke, not to be taken seriously.

[–]Skipdip[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Oh! Excellent! Do you have receipts on this? It might go some way to convince her.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Just google "Anne Fausto-Sterling five sexes tongue-in-cheek Twitter" or something like that. I can't give a link coz I've been locked out of Twitter.

As an aside, it seems you might be well served if you looked into "how to do an effective web search." The words we put into the search bar really affect the quality of the results that come up. Also, my experience is that when we do web searches, we often have to go well beyond page 1 of the results to find what we're looking for. It takes patience and a certain doggedness.

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you - I will! I did end up finding the tweet as well.

Do you have any pieces of advice for how I could be persuasive? People have pushed back really hard, and I wonder if I am being naieve by bludgeoning them with my facts. I also don’t love the idea of just shutting up about it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Since you asked for advice, here's mine:

1) Pick your battles.

2) Be aware that none of us can change anyone else's minds. Each of us can only change our own minds - and to do that we have to be open to hearing other ideas, taking in new information, confronting our own biases, and seriously asking ourselves whether or not we and our views might be inaccurate, only partially true, or totally wrong, after all.

Many people are not open to any of this. I suspect your friend is in this category. Most gender ideologues are not interested in an exchange of ideas, they just want to assert what they think is the truth and get their own way. Hence their mantra "no debate!"

3)"How to be persuasive" is a huge topic. Lots of info out there. But my advice would be, first familiarize yourself with all the different kinds of arguments, methods of reasoning, rhetorical devices, fallacies and such there are. Then find your own style - or set of styles - that you're most comfy with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

https://human.libretexts.org/Courses/Arapahoe_Community_College/ACC%3A_English_121-_Composition_1/06%3A_Argument_(Boylan_et_al)/6.4%3A_What_are_the_Different_Types_of_Argument_in_Writing

https://www.rlf.org.uk/resources/different-types-of-argument/

https://writtent.com/blog/17-powerful-persuasive-writing-techniques/

4) Jane Clare Jones is a very clever thinker and writer who is able to convey her points very persuasively, in part because she uses humour and anger along with her fierce intelligence. I suggest reading everything on her website, starting with this:

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

5) See point 1 again: Pick your battles. Don't waste time tilting at windmills.

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok I actually read this earlier and started responding, but then I stopped because I didn’t know exactly how to respond. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me. I feel a lot of truth in this here. I really needed to accept 1 and 2. I finally have been coming around to them. As far as the other part I think I actually have a fresh, yet recycled, perspective on that. I hit this wall in my personal relationships and realized I have to do a 180. I checked out the logical fallacies thing and I plan to really learn them nice and good. But as I am now, I already have a pretty good grasp intuitively. I can tell when they are happening, or if I am doing them. But also I feel like when I approach a conversation about this planning it out in my head, I could never actually accomplish my goal of getting them to see my perspective. Me winning a math competition against them is not gonna make them listen to me more. So actually what I need to do is listen to them and put myself in their shoes, and stop trying to fix them or tell them what to believe. Even though it doesn’t feel fair that I should have to meet them 100% of the way and do 100% of the effort, by certain measures it is completely fair. Also I need to let go of my fear that I am wrong. If I am right and I discovered the truth then I don’t need to be afraid because it will stand up to the most exhaustive scrutiny. I should welcome their skepticism and criticism because those are both noble things, and I know when they are genuine they cannot hurt me. I need to enter their reality where I am the insensitive bad guy, and feel it emotionally. Because honestly it is my fault that I acted against natural law. I preached natural law but acted against it. That’s why nature rose up and kicked me in the ass like the great compassionate mirror that it is. It is a common fault of youth to be so brazen, proud, and idealistic, but nonetheless it doesn’t mean it was ok how I treated people.

Pardon the rambling. Thinking aloud here.

[–]Skipdip[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My response that I’m working on: To start off No one that I am aware of earnestly believe that the vast majority of men are identifying into womanhood in an attempt to benefit from “female privilege”. There is an array of different causes that cause someone gender and/or sex dysphoria. Many of these causes have to do with patriarchal and misogynistic culture. They have to do with people being traumatized by traditional gender (aka sex stereotypes), traumatized by internalized homophobia and misogyny. There is however a sizable contingent of Transwomen-identified heterosexual males with a paraphilia called Autogynephillia. In this case, it’s not about oppression but a kink, often started by unhealthy obsession with transgender or sissy porn, or lesbian porn, that people get into full time. There are many forums where transwomen wax poetic about getting hard or “emitting” when someone uses she pronouns for them. This sexual fetish is an example of what they call “gender euphoria”. Funny, because I never had a spontaneous orgasm for being a female or someone calling me “she”. I digress...

Primarily the cause of dysphoria is mental illness. It is a well known fact among even the staunchest of transgender ideology supporters that there is a huge relationship between trauma and trans identity. A sexuality and gender therapist friend of mine (who also disagrees with me by the way) has told me that it is the thing everyone knows and don’t really talk about. According to an article in psychology today, 50% of trans identified people experience mental illnesses categorized as such by the dsm. That number actually goes to 100% when you include gender dysphoria itself, which is also classified as a mental illness in the dsm.

Psychology Today’s explanation follows exactly the rhetoric of the TRAs... that transphobia is the explanation for this. That simply does not make sense, because what is transphobia anyway? If a little boy wants to play with dolls and wear makeup and is prevented from doing that... is that transphobia? No, it is a misogynistic culture policing femininity in men. If a girl wants to wrestle and dress like a boy, and she is treated badly as a result... is that transphobia? No, it is misogyny. If a girl dresses masculinely and wants to date another girl, and some kids bully and harrass her... is that transphobia? No it is misogyny and homophobia. If a homosexual boy is ridiculed for wanting to wear makeup, and he is so deeply affected that the only way he can feel free to be himself and wear makeup is to say he is “gender fluid” so he doesn’t feel beholden to being a “sissy boy”... then he goes through life calling himself genderfluid and he comes across an antifeminist conservative who looks at him with his makeup and calls him a “sissy boy”... is that transphobia? No! It is the same homophobia and misogyny that it always was. But, because the conservative man, also will not humor the gay “genderfluid” man by giving the gay mans chosen descriptor term any credence, suddenly it is branded as “transphobic” and misogyny and homophobia are promptly forgotten by all “trans ally’s”

Ironically, I do see myself as an ally to trans identified people, because I am not colluding in this bizzare and backwards ideology. It by and large does not liberate them anyway, and in most cases their dysphoria never goes away through transition.

The fact is it should set off alarm bells that the main trans people who people talk about and staunchly defend are trans women. I.E. Males. Males who make small gametes and have XY chromosomes. This is a reiteration of a cycle of prioritizing males, of letting females fall to the sidelines.

If, like the trans rights activists would have you believe, misogyny and sexism is all about “gender identity” then you would think that the trans men would be getting all the attention. Trans men would have the privilege, the voice, the dominance over the focus. Instead, what we find is trans men universally still experiencing sex-based oppression, invisibility, etc. Trans men are often as invisible as lesbians, because the overwhelming majority of them are, infact lesbian or at least bisexual.

Race is a social construct, race doesn’t exist outside of our minds. Like gender, it has real world consequences for racial underclasses. It has real world consequences because people consciously or subconsciously believe in it, and project it onto people. “Subconscious bias” on the individual level, and a blindness to systemic and historical realities of oppression. Imagine the outrage if suddenly a group of white people burst forth as “identifying as black” and the entire black world was expected and demanded to bend over backwards to validate them. (We have already seen the result when a White person tried to do this cough Rachel Dolezal cough.) They were running African American community programs, heading programs at Historically black colleges, legally able to be regarded as African Americans, statistically counted as African Americans... It would raise questions such as “what does black mean anyway?” To which the transblacks would say “a black person is someone who identifies as black”. Then you say “ok well what does black mean? It has to mean something” you tell them “my definition and the dictionary definition is 1) of or relating to any of the various population groups that have dark pigmentation of the skin. And 2) of or relating to African American people or their culture.”

“That is an exclusionary definition” they respond “the definition of black is something determined by each individual. If they identify with their own individual definition of black, then they are black”. “But that is not correct nor fair”, you respond, “you have white skin, and are descended exclusively from Europeans”. “That doesn’t matter” they reply, “I feel black, spiritually we are all one big human family anyway, and it’s hard to be a black person in a white body”.

“How can you “feel black”?” You ask “what feeling are you talking about?, you inquire. “Well ever since I was a kid I had a really good sense of rhythm and was a good runner. I just love having long bedazzled nails and locks, I only listen to rap music, I am lazier than most other White people, I love fried chicken, and I feel at most at peace with my body after 8 hours in the tanning salon”

“That is incredibly racist” you say. “Those things have nothing to do with being black”. And this is exactly what is happening with the definition of woman. If a woman isn’t an “adult human female” then what is a woman? The definition of woman that no trans ideologist will admit to is: woman is femininity, nurturance, softness, wearing dresses, makeup, long hair, having breasts, no body hair, hate sports, love shopping, weak, fragile, emotional, high-strung, slutty, prudish, less intelligent than men, etc etc. This does not even touch on the effects of white supremacy in the definition of woman and the de-feminization and complexities of Misogynior. Their definition of woman is based entirely on sex stereotypes. And the reason they universally shut down when you ask them to be specific about what a woman is.. is because on a subconscious level they see their argument holds no water. There is no such thing as “the female brain” there is no such thing as a single male or female brain. It is absurd and it is profoundly misogynistic. Just as in my example, the transblacks definition of black is entirely based on stereotypes, because literally there is no other possibility once they stop talking about skin pigmentation and/or being descended from African Americans.

Trans identified people are proof of the diversity of personality and expression that exists within the two sex categories. Wonderful, we need to bust open those gender (aka sex stereotype) myths. There is no such thing as liberation from gender through more gender. There is nothing progressive about the denial of material reality in favor of ambiguous undefined “feelings”.

Dysphoria (of which there are three types 1)gender dysphoria 2) sex dysphoria 3) ROGD - rapid onset gender dysphoria) is a mental illness. Sex is immutable, however complex it may be when you get into the weeds, in practicality no one is confused about who is male and who is female. A man with less testosterone is not “less male” or “more female” and a woman with a flat chest is no “less female” or “more male”. A man with a big penis is not “more male” nor is a woman with a bigger clitoris. Male is determined by the presence of a Y chromosome and functioning Androgen Receptors. If both of these things are not present, female development will occur.

[–]slushpilot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Your friend originally wrote "Here are my thoughts, in no particular order", and I think it would be helpful to help her refocus by extracting one or more concrete position statements or synthesizing one common theme to put some "handles" on this slippery discussion, and maybe discuss them one at a time. Start by putting names to what you disagree with. Is it any of:

  • "biological sex is binary, not bimodal"
  • "race and gender relations are not analogues"
  • "sex is the single most determinant category for athletic performance"
  • etc.

Ultimately your friend seems to be summing up her disagreement with a very general, unspecified thought:

I strongly disagree with what I think you’re suggesting about sex- and gender-based policies. I say this on the basis that rejecting trans-women and men works to support patriarchal structures that are universally harmful [...]

However, I assume what you're suggesting is not "rejecting trans-women and men" based on patriarchal structures, or even rejecting them at all, but having policies based on what they physically are instead of what they feel or wish to be. It might help to try and specify for her what you actually think these policies are, and what determinant of fairness they should be based on.

I just wanted to add, the idea of a dichotomous "blackness"/"whiteness" is ironically much more of a spectrum than the arguably binary gender/sex argument. (Or bimodal or whatever: such splitting of hairs really does not matter to the greater point.)

People can much more obviously be 1/2, 1/4, 1/16 or some other mix of African+European ancestry (with honourable mention for the other continents) ultimately making race meaningless. The same will never be true of physical sex.

[–]TurkishCoffee 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'll confess i couldn't make myself read that all the way through, but i don't think your friend understands what the phrase "bimodal distribution" means as a mathematical term in the freaking slightest.

Chromosomal sex is bimodal to the point of damn near being binary. Biological sex, excluding how one identifies or feels, is bimodal less extremely so than chromosomal but still pretty damn bimodal. THe percentages of people who do not solidly fall into easily recognized categories of male/female in sum total, are small. extant. but small.

Sexism speaking bimodally? Someone saw a big word they want to use. Actually someone likes to use a lot of woke words. And if blackness is like transness....y'know i'm not even gonna go there because we all know it's not the same thing but damned if they don't open up that rats nest of race isn't well defined either so why are transracial individuals wrong? they're a tiny number too. I'm sure they care about that (i wouldn't use that argument, it'll get you nowhere and come off as being hurtful, but they're being stupid).

[–]Skipdip[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Thanks for your perspective. So you think I should cut the transracial analogy? It can be inflammatory but I also think it communicated the concept pretty well by seeing it in another context.

[–]TurkishCoffee 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

you know your friend better than I do. i know if any of the people i know spouted such nonsense, and then I brought it up, it'd just get stonewalled and met with absolute insistence its not the same and now i'm just a racist they wont listen to.

[–]TiredAndSick 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Considering this exact thing happened to me, yea

[–]Skipdip[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are probably right actually. I am glad that I didn’t impusivle send it to her. I think I need to stop processessing stuff externally (not within my fellow affionados) because I am very crude in how I am presenting this to people.

[–]vitunrotta 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think your reply was/is good and please do keep the race analogy in. It reinforces the point aggressively. And the questions/answers you wrote down so clearly demonstrate the stupidity of the trans ideology. Yes, the stuff you mentioned IS incredibly racist - just like the idea that womanhood is just nail polish and high heels is incredibly sexist.

For thick people, you sometimes have to pound in the message and make them feel uncomfortable in order for them to start opening their eyes.