Caster Semenya losses appeal against the restriction of testosterone levels in female runners

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[–]luckystar 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I'm confused -- is Caster Semenya biologically male or female? I thought their condition made them technically female but effectively male. Does anyone know the name of the condition?

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Semenya is a XY male with 5-ARD, an enzyme deficiency that prevents testosterone (T) from being converted into dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT plays its most important role in the development of the external male genitalia in utero.

Males with 5-ARD are often/sometimes born with external genitalia that at birth looks atypical for males, or perhaps more like female genitalia than male genitalia. But males with 5-ARD have fully functioning testes, and go through normal male puberty (as well as the mini puberty that occurs in the months after birth).

In the court proceedings and decision that were upheld today, Semenya was said to be a normal biological male in all ways except for the appearance of Semenya's outer genitals.

I thought their condition made them technically female but effectively male

I don't get this distinction. What does "technically female" and "effectively male" mean?

[–]luckystar 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Thanks for clarifying. I am no expert on sex or DSDs. I meant I know that some people's sex as determined the scientific way (gamete production) is at odds with most of their physical traits. So I thought Semenya had ovaries but then otherwise a very high testosterone male-ish body. It sounds like in reality it's sorta he other way around - Semenya is biologically male but has some physical traits of women. If (s)he has testes and can produce sperm then that sounds pretty conclusively male to me!

[–]NecessaryScene1 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The media seem determined to lie/mislead about this. They keep saying Semenya is a "female with high testosterone". No, Semenya is a male with atypical genitals. It's just wilful at this point - they're trying to make out that the rules are bizarrely arbitrary.

(I agree that they are somewhat arbitrary - why certain sports, and why let any 5-ARD person in? Is lowered testosterone really enough to offset the advantage for 5-ARD any more than it is for any non-DSD trans-identifying male? To some extent the testosterone rule is making a rod for their own backs - it allows it to be reported as "restriction of testosterone levels", rather than simply "restricting certain XY DSDs".)

Semenya could possibly successfully father a child (has he already?) - Erik Schwinegger did, after surgery.

[–]kwallio 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The media have been straight up lying about Semenya, they say she is an intersex woman with higher than normal testosterone when in fact she is intersex MALE who has gone through male puberty etc.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

If (s)he has testes and can produce sperm then that sounds pretty conclusively male to me!

Whether or not a male person (or plant or animal) can produce sperm isn't the issue. What confers males their huge advantages in sport is not sperm count. Lots of males have low sperm count or are infertile. Lance Armstrong has one testicle. Doesn't make him half a man - or sort of a woman.

What matters for sport is being able both to produce and utilize levels of testosterone as males do, especially going through male puberty that happens in early adolescence (starting age 10 or 11 on average) as well as the male mini-puberty that begins at approximately four weeks (when newborn boys' testosterone level surges to pubertal levels and stays there for approximately 5 months).

Semenya is biologically male but has some physical traits of women

My understanding is that males with 5-ARD do not have any "physical traits of women." The only way such a claim can be made is to define women so as to include all/any men whose external genitals didn't form properly in utero, or are missing due to accidents, injury or disease. Bet all the men with groin injuries like Jake Barnes in Hemingway's "The Sun Also Rises" had would be surprised to hear that in losing their dicks they acquired "some physical traits of women."

[–]luckystar 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

For the first part, my understanding was that sex is determined by (potential) gamete production. Obviously it's not the sperm itself making them run faster lol.

As for the second point, that is interesting. I mean CS had some sort of sexing test done by some sporting organization and passed it, so there must be SOMEthing that makes them think CS is female?

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, gametes are key, and human gametes come from one of two types of gonads: testes or ovaries. However, sex is a category - a plant or animal is male or female depending on whether they belong to the category that has the potential to produce sperm or (mature) eggs at some point in time. But not all individuals within each category will have that potential themselves coz there could be problems with their gonads or all the other reproductive anatomy and systems involved in actually producing

I mean CS had some sort of sexing test done by some sporting organization and passed it, so there must be SOMEthing that makes them think CS is female?

I don't know what this mysterious "sexing test" is supposed to consist of, and where this claim that Semenya somehow "passed it" comes from. Also, medical tests don't really yield results that say pass/fail, LOL; a condition/disease/mutation/physical parts/anomalies/signs and symptoms are found, or not found, and recorded - or lab values/measures are obtained and recorded.

The diagnostic workup for XY 5-ARD is straightforward and clear-cut, and was in 2009 as well. Since the genetic mutations that cause it were identified and mapped in 1992, and assays for testing have been available since then as well, in 2009 it was not a difficult condition for medical professionals to ascertain with 100% confidence - as remains the case today.

The fact that Semenya has functioning testes, no ovaries (or other female reproductive organs), XY sex chromosomes, male levels of T, and male-typical sensitivity to T has been known since 2009. But South Africa and Semenya have chosen to undertake a long, costly legal battle against the international sports bodies, and to mount a worldwide PR campaign, to establish that Semenya nevertheless has a right to participate in female sports because Semenya has legal documents that say in all caps FEMALE and supposedly has a "female gender identity." They have argued that when it comes to sport and sex, what should matter most is an athlete's belief/claim of what sex he is, not the actual demonstrable provable sex of his body.

Also, it appears that Semenya did not actually "pass" the "sexing test" the IAAF put Semenya through in Europe in the fall of 2009, or the ones that were done in SA in early August of 2009. Coz in September 2009, the IAAF suspended Semenya from competition. The suspension remained in place through the first six months of 2010.

How/why Semenya got back into female sports is a longer, more complicated story. I'll make a separate post about what happened exactly (or at least the broad strokes).

But the salient point is that the Semenya saga is more about international politics, identity politics, and public relations than about the facts of Semenya's physiology and endocrinology. It's about the extent to which having a body that has gone through male puberty and has normal male levels of testosterone gives XY athletes physical advantages over XX athletes that matter in competitive sports; and it's about whether participation in female sports should be based not on being biologically female, but only on an athlete's assertion that he is a girl or woman coz he says he has a female "gender identity" and claims he "feels like" the opposite sex, and/or he can produce legal ID documents that say "female."

The core bone of contention in the battle between Semenya and the IAAF has has never been over whether Semenya has a male body - the facts of Semenya's biology have been known to the IAAF since the fall of 2009 - but exactly how much of an advantage Semenya's male body gives him in female athletics. And the boner of contention (sorry, couldn't resist, LOL) in the case of athletes like Semenya, Wambui and Niyonsaba (the three XY DSD winners in the women's 800m at the 2016 Rio Olympics) against the IAAF/WA is whether males with DSDs that led their external genitals to develop atypically/improperly in utero should be allowed to compete - and win - in female sports as a consolation price for having male genitals that are malformed or stunted, and for growing up very poor in places where as children they didn't have access to medical care that would have allowed them to get their DSDs diagnosed earlier in their lives.

so there must be SOMEthing that makes them think CS is female?

Semenya's SA birth certificate, which wasn't issued until Semenya was 16 and already had been selected by SA officials as the country's "golden girl" athlete, says FEMALE - in all caps too. So presumably does Semenya's South African passport. That and Semenya's assertions about self-concept and gender identity are the only things that "make CS female."

The IAAF argued in court that Semenya is a healthy biological male who apart from the appearance of Semenya's external genitals is like any other healthy male athlete. This apparently has been their position all along, but they kept it under wraps out of respect for Semenya's privacy - and to placate and accommodate males who believe they have a "human right" to participate in female sports coz they had the misfortune to be born with DSDs that left their external genitals malformed or severely stunted.

Semenya in 2014 whilst taking meds (BC pills) to suppress testosterone in order to comply with the IAAF rules that were then in place: https://youtu.be/Hvg50P4FwTk

Semenya in August 2019, a couple of months after the CAS and IAAF had released to the world the info that Semenya is a male with a male-only DSD, XY 5-ARD: https://youtu.be/HPNPi_NFpHE

Clip from interview Semenya gave in late June 2019, again after the world learnt of Semenya's sex and particular DSD, in which Semenya complained of being "crucified" and said "I am a savior... I compare my life with Jesus": https://youtu.be/B5OLayzga_o

[–]luckystar 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Hi this is a lot of information so it is going to take me some time to go through it. But you asked about the sexing test of IAAF and I found this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8272686/ Semenya was allowed to keep the medals they won so I don't understand how they could fail the test and still be allowed to do that?

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That 1993 article is about the realization/discovery that sex cannot be determined solely and entirely based on whether a person has XX (female) or XY (male) sex chromosomes. Turns out, a/the key determinant of sex is the SRY gene, which is usually located on the Y sex chromosome, but on very rare occasions gets relocated to an X sex chromosome; hence there are people who are XX males. More rarely, there are some individuals who have sex chromosome mosaicism - in which the cells of different parts of their bodies have different sex chromosomes. Which might be because of incorporating a twin fetus in utero, or because some cells belonging to the mother (or to previous children the mother gestated) have been transferred in utero.

But there are many DSDs that do not involve the sex chromosomes. For example, CAIS and PAIS - individuals with these conditions have XY sex chromosomes - there's no question about that - but they have defects/anomalies in the genes that control for/shape an XY person's androgen receptors, which make them more or less able to utilize testosterone in the ways that non-affected males normally do. XY individuals with CAIS develop in ways that make them appear to be fully female. In fact, they are not fully female, but they are raised and socialized as females, and many of us with "rigid" ideas about biology would consider them to be female in most life situations.

But Semenya's DSD has nothing to do with sex chromosomes, a misplaced SRY gene, faulty androgen receptors or an endocrine system that's atypical or has gone awry. Since Semenya had full medical workups in 2009, Semenya's entirely normal male sex chromosomes, and normally functioning male gonads, male endocrine system and male androgen receptors have never been in dispute.

Semenya's condition -5-ARD - is an enzyme deficiency that affects people of both sexes. The genetic mutations/defects that cause it are not located on the sex chromosomes.

But it's only in males that 5-ARD is a DSD. 5-ARD only causes a disorder/difference of sex development or DSD in people who have XY sex chromosomes with a SRY gene located where it normally is - on the Y.

5-ARD prevents the conversion of T into DHT, and since DHT is crucial for the proper development of male external genitalia in utero male fetuses are most affected by it. Typically, they are born with male genitalia that look ambiguous, under-developed or stunted, or appear upon cursory glance to look more female than male.

DHT plays no part in female sex development, so girls and women with the very same genetic/inherited enzyme deficiency that Semenya has are unaffected, and most go their entire lives unaware they have the condition.

[–]luckystar 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm rereading your posts & the links you sent and... Yeah, I was never very good at biology class I must admit. To me it basically sounds like CS is male in every meaningful sense (chromosomes, hormone levels, even has testes) EXCEPT the testes are internal & their external genitalia looked like a large clitoris? But where did her "vagina" come from? I know that surgical mutilations at birth are sometimes carried out on intersex people.

CS can't menstruate, right? Wouldn't CS and family have wondered what was going on in her teen years, when all the "fellow girls" are getting their period?

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL, don't blame yourself - most of this stuff is not taught in standard biology class.

Dunno what Semenya's external genitalia looks like - that info has been redacted from the records released to the public. Which I think is the correct thing to do....

But generally speaking, males with 5-ARD are born with external genitals that can vary widely in appearance: some have micro penises (w/wo hypospadias) that get mistaken for enlarged clits, along with empty scrotal sacs that are assumed to be floppy and baggy labia. Others have scrotal skin that looks more like "normal" female labia (though interestingly, it's often fused).

Many males with 5-ARD do have pelvic indentations that are assumed to be vaginas at birth, and which are later referred to as vaginas. But usually these are just "blind pouches" of flaccid penile or scrotal skin that's been inverted; the pouches go nowhere and are of very shallow depth (usually less than an inch). There is nothing muscular or elastic about them like with real vaginas! Often, the urethras of 5-ARD males empty into the shallow skin pouch, giving the impression that these individuals urinate from their vaginas.

Anyone who has cared for babies knows that infant girls (or females of any other age) don't pee from our vaginas; the female urethra is entirely separate from the vagina. But because medicine and biology are so male-dominated and male-centric, the entire focus in determining neonate and adult sex traditionally has been on, and remains on, whether a baby/person has what looks to be a dick. And whether the child whizzes from out the end of a dick.

If midwives/doctors looked for where a newborn's urethra is, and where the pee comes out, rather than just for the presence of a penis, I suspect there'd be fewer claims of children being born with "ambiguous genitalia." Traditionally in many cultures males with hypospadias (urethra that empties out the side rather than the end of the penis) were considered to be some kind of girl/woman!

CS can't menstruate, right? Wouldn't CS and family have wondered what was going on in her teen years, when all the "fellow girls" are getting their period?

No, CS can't menstruate. Yes, CS and family would have wondered in CS's teen years, as would have been the case with any girl and any family on planet earth... And they sure would have noticed that whilst CS's same-age classmates were becoming clearly feminized in puberty, CS was becoming clearly masculinized.

But this is where all the lying and conning come in. Team Semenya say there's no way Semenya and Semenya's family and community possibly could have realized that something was awry with Semenya's sex development coz in the poor rural township in South Africa CS grew up in, nobody had access to modern medical care - which is true. But at the same time, they claim that without access to modern medicine, no one in Semenya's township had a clue about basic biology - which is false.

No matter where on earth people are from - or what their race, skin colour, ethnicity, class, level of schooling, religion, political persuasion is - people who live(d) in "primitive" conditions and pastoral and agricultural communities have always been the world's greatest experts on biology - coz their daily bread and survival depend on it.

In fact, it was in poor, rural, "primitive" parts of the Dominican Republic that the male DSD that Semenya has - 5-ARD - was first reported on and explored. The people who recognized, described and brought the condition to world attention were not male medical doctors from rich European countries of the Global North, but female midwives from the DR who had noticed the condition and become concerned about it. They reached out to a female endocrinologist in the USA who spoke Spanish, Julianne Imperato of Cornell University, who in 1974 published the first research about this male DSD in a Western scientific journal.

CS can't menstruate, right?

Of course not, coz CS has no ovaries, Fallopian tubes or uterus. But this still hasn't stopped Semenya from being the public face and celebrity spokesman [sic] for a South African brand of menstrual cups - Princess D.

In the past year, most of the evidence of Semenya being the public face of Princess D menstrual cups has been erased from the internet, but some evidence remains:

https://twitter.com/caster800m/status/829011501012893696

https://www.swdcricket.co.za/news/article/1666

The fact that Semenya can't menstruate also hasn't stopped Semenya from being one of SA's leading "menstrual educators" who has been showered with awards for Semenya's "campaigns to distribute menstrual cups to disadvantaged South African girls, supporting them to remain in school during their menstrual cycles."

http://www.twohundredwomen.com/castersemenya

One of Semenya's main tactics as a "menstrual educator" to/of disadvantaged girls in SA seems to be shaming those who are unable to use menstrual cups and instead must rely on pads or tampons

https://www.sabcnews.com/sabcnews/semenya-to-continue-efforts-to-distribute-menstrual-cups/