Are we conditioned to ignore sexism?

BEB · 2020-09-06T22:08:42+00:00

Yes.

lefterfield · 2020-09-06T22:31:08+00:00

Hoemw do I know I am not overthinking it?

I would say the best way is to do what you've done here - get a second opinion from someone that's reasonable, like your friend from what it sounds. It's really hard to say, especially when women are trained to believe it's their fault that an idea of theirs is dismissed or rejected rather than due to sexism. And not every case will have sexism as the cause.

endless_assfluff · 2020-09-06T23:40:13+00:00

I was recently in a similar situation. The frustrating thing is, it's not possible to prove that your coworkers are treating you differently because of your sex, because that relies on knowing someone else's intentions. And, of course, if you dare to say the word "sexist" in front of them, they'll deny it until the cows come home and start inventing justifications for why their behavior is okay. Sexism is bad and they're not bad people, so they can't possibly be sexist!

I spent a lot of time ruminating over whether my coworkers were treating me differently because of their own internal biases or because I did something wrong. I wanted to sort it out because I thought exposing my workplace's sexism would solve the problem, or that I could get them to stop by changing my behavior. What helped me get through that was realizing that sexism is a motivation, not an action---and their motivation didn't matter, because their actions were still wrong anyway. Regardless of whether they're shooting everything you say down because you're a woman, or a minority, or they don't like your shoes, it is dumb and illogical as HELL to evaluate an idea based on who said it instead of the idea itself. And you've already proved they're doing that. So if you and your friend are planning on calling 'em out, I would advise staying away from sexism---they'll just shut down and deny, deny, deny---and instead point out that the value of an idea doesn't change based on who says it. Or, just find comfort in knowing their Logical and Rational Man Brains aren't as infallible as they want us to think.

I've found in situations like these that it's easier to stand up for someone else than for yourself. If someone comes at me directly with that behavior, I'm put on the spot and have to sort out my emotions while also summoning the words and courage to call them out. But if I'm at a conference and see someone talking down to a junior woman the same way I've been talked down to, yeah, that guy's getting told. So, here, your friend is an absolute badass for helping you out. It shouldn't be your responsibility to deal with this anyway. You're not causing the problem, so you shouldn't be the one expected to solve it.

In case you also need to hear this, even though I haven't heard your ideas, I can tell you right now that you could be presenting the best ideas possible and they'd still treat you like this. This happens in creative fields sometimes, where people are conditioned to judge mens' work on its merit and women's work on its shortfalls. And like, every idea and creative work has positives and negatives, and creative people by their nature make a lot of missteps, so they're usually going to be able to find something to criticize. And if they don't find any mistakes, they start inventing them. This is going to happen independently of the quality of your work. I've been laughed out of discussion groups with over a dozen people when I was the only person in the room who was right.

I thought that if I could just exert myself more and work harder they'd eventually respect me. I don't believe that anymore. Instead, I've learned not to trust their judgement because it's biased against me in ways that don't have anything to do with the quality of my work or suitability for the career. That doesn't mean ignoring criticism, but rather sifting out the made-up garbage from actual criticism, and not wasting energy trying to earn this person's praise and respect because they're never going to give it to me.

Unfortunately, I had to leave that environment in order to get better. But I hope this helps anyway.

jet199 · 2020-09-07T09:48:32+00:00

Don't worry whether you are right about them being sexist or not. The tactics you use for dealing with rude, lazy people are the same no matter their reasons.

What you'll find is men tend to overtalk, drag out what they are saying, go off on tangents and talk slowly to try to dominate the conversation. It could well be that if they are lazy this is the whole point of their behaviour, they are trying to talk round in circles and avoid coming to a conclusion to avoid getting down to work. So you need to stop this. Rather than spending all you energy defending your point, simply state it and then use your energy to keep the conversation on track. Tell them to get to the point, read up on fallacies and point them out and demand they come up with alternatives rather than just complaining about what you say. You need you learn to interrupt but don't do it when you are triggered by a certain dumb thing they are saying but do it when they are waffling or changing the subject to bring them back to the point.

sisterinsomnia · 2020-09-07T14:23:20+00:00

This is the inaudible women problem. I have experienced it in meetings where my comment is met with silence and then some minutes later a male colleague makes the same comment and it is eagerly debated. I have had female friends experiencing exactly the same thing. And I have experienced it when trying to explain to a contractor what I want to have done to the gutters (he ignored me and I had to get a male neighbor to come and repeat what I said to get the right work done).

There was a study on this, many decades ago, where several meetings (maybe faculty meetings?) where recorded and then the various exchanges were analyzed. Women's comments tended to be ignored by both men and women.

So this is not new stuff and it is very real.

Not sure how to combat it though I do recall reading a few suggestions. You can join the conversation and say "given how Joe added to my initial suggestion, blah blah" but that might backfire, depending on how sexist others are. Or you can talk to a few people before meetings to create a group which agrees to discuss the proposals of each other and so give them more of an airing.

jelliknight · 2020-09-08T02:23:08+00:00

Is there something we can DO to fight back on this?

Be a pushy bitch. Say "I just said that", and "Thanks for repeating my idea for me". Be willing to cut people off if thats what they're doing to you, then just keep talking LOUDER AND MORE FIRMLY WHILE MAKING DIRECT EYE CONTACT until they yield and then talk normally again. Talk more often, don't wait and see if someone else wants to. If you're thinking something and there's a gap, throw it in. Doesn't matter if it's good or not.

You'd think it gets you treated badly but IME it gets you treated with respect. They might call you names behind your back, though.

Who cares if you're over reacting? Being assertive pays off regardless. If you are overcompensating then you end up being a leader. It seems like you're doing all the work anyway, fuck em, might as well grab the reigns.

In the hidden figures movie I got annoyed because they show Katherine as a shrinking violet waiting for the white man to save her. She gets shut out of a meeting and sulks in the hallway until he calls her in. In reality, to hear her tell it, she shoved her way through the door, picked up someone elses books and moved them out of the way and took a seat. They said "You can't be in here" and she said "It's my work. I'm staying." they said said "X was sitting there" she said "Well, I'm sitting here now." Boom. If you want to get ahead you're going to have to be a boss ass bitch.

penelopekitty · 2020-09-07T11:47:14+00:00

You're not being paranoid. You are becoming an adult and seeing things as they really are and always have been. Welcome to womanhood.

tea4two · 2020-09-07T13:00:08+00:00

Unfortunately I think we are conditioned to ignore sexism because it's so pervasive if we didn't we'd never find the time to get anything done.

Immortallogic · 2020-09-07T18:39:42+00:00

You're right, this is well known. Women often get their ideas stolen by men, or told it's a bad idea then they say these same thing and get credit for it. It's one of the most basic types of sexism. We're all brought up in a male centric and patriarchal society and these things are super common. You're not being paranoid at all lol. Check out s/pinkpillfeminism Herr, for more info, if you want.

What can you do? Call it the fuck out. Who cares if they think you're a bitxh? You can do it in a way where they look dumb. "right... That is exactly what I just said". Or, just go directly to your superiors with your idea's, so you get credit for them. Don't take anything for granted in society, alot of it is rigged against women to keep us down and 'in our place'. Being nice and polite isn't going to get you anywhere. Look out for yourself, learn not to be emotional when dealing with shit like this (because it'll make you more credible), and accept that most men are sexist, it's a combination of socialization and biology. If you want some help in a dating context, check out r/femaledatingstrategy on Reddit too

Vulvamort · 2020-09-07T19:51:07+00:00

This is why I never believe TiFs who say they "never experienced sexism" and it wasn't a factor in their transition. They do experience it. We all do. But it's often so subtle and we're so conditioned to see these things as normal we've learned to ignore when our guts tell us we're being mistreated.

You're not being paranoid. I think the first step to fighting back is to recognize when it's happening, like the situation with your friend. In order to avoid falling into the kind of thinking where you're looking for something that isn't there, try to compare the way certain people react to men vs how they react to women. Some people are just assholes and will treat everyone like shit, but sometimes there's a difference between how they interact with men vs women and when you know what to look for it's easier to spot.

yishengqingwa666 · 2020-09-08T21:27:50+00:00

If I spoke up every time I heard a sexist of misogynist remark, I'd be at it all day long. It's exhausting by design. I have numerous ways to shut it down or ignore it... anything to get through a day.

drx453 · 2020-09-08T08:38:35+00:00

I've had a discussion about this a month ago at my work, and I think it's a combination of sexism and the fact that women are generally less assertive the man.

The reason I say this is that at work in my department there are 3 women (it's IT so it's a male dominated industry), one complained to me in private how she gets ignored (I'm a man BTW) and it is true. She had the exact experience you've had. But she is a foreigner (and we don't have many in our country), so she doesn't speak the local language, which immediately gets her ignored, but a bigger issue is she's from a culture where women are less assertive, she also complained how she doesn't like the way we converse here, how there is a lot of cursing, even in presence of women, which resulted in her being withdrawn from interaction with other coworkers. Culturally here everybody curses, men and women.

But another woman in my department is extremely assertive, she doesn't get ignored. I'd even venture to guess that she has never experienced this kind of sexism with being ignored because she has always been assertive.

Last example is a man from my department who is extremely meek and non-assertive, he also gets ignored all the time, and saddled with tasks nobody wants to do.

There is a sexist cause to this behaviour but it is not only sexism. Be more assertive, approach interactions with mentality of "I know best, fuck the rest", I think that is the only solution. Repeat yourself, be louder, etc.

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