My 60 y.o. aunt has a TIM at her golf club. He's using the women's change rooms and registering in the women's tournament.

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[–]soundsituation 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

If it's not happened to you or anyone you know, please don't make blanket claims that when a male "loved one come(s) out as AGP, it would be a very emotionally ambivalent experience" - for whom do you mean exactly, his mother, his gran, his aunts, his sisters, his female partner(s), his kids?

Yes, potentially all of the above, or anyone in a close relationship with the person with the paraphilia. Typically, when someone you love and have known for years, perhaps decades, reveals something disturbing about themselves, it causes cognitive dissonance and emotional ambivalence. You're forced to reconcile the person you thought you knew and cared deeply for with the person he's revealed himself to be. That's painful - I don't need to have experienced it personally to understand that. Contrast that with seeing some dude roll up to the starting line of your local women's 5k - not the same thing. No conflicting emotions warring with each other, unless you really do buy into the TRA fantasy of gender superseding sex. Easier to feel anger and only anger.

How is that you can't see that males who sneak into their female relatives rooms and drawers to steal/"borrow" their personal items to jerk off in/into are violating the rights of these girls and women?

You're right, this is a clear violation. What I meant before, and stand by, is that crossdressing in and of itself doesn't violate anyone's rights. Stealing someone else's property to fulfill your fetish is on another level. I still don't think this is as cut and dry as men in women's sports, however, for the simple fact that's it's not easy (perhaps impossible) to effectively legislate against. What recourse do you really have if your husband steals your underwear? On the other hand, the NCAA/IOC/etc. could easily ban male participation in female sports. Whether or not they do so, of course, is another matter, but the directive itself is uncomplicated and easy to enforce. As a wronged party, it's easier to "not put up with something" (my original statement in response to the OP) when it can be governed by realistically enforceable rules, and when there's little to no emotional compromise.

As for your historical examples of trans-identified males in female athletics, that's incredibly sad and disheartening, and I stand corrected. These days we're seeing it at all levels, from high school to college to the Olympics. Is is safe to say that that is a new phenomenon? I'm an older Millennial who played sports from grade school through college and never once did I see or hear about a post-pubescent male participating in women's events; it seems to be comparatively rampant today.

[–]whateverneverpine 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What I meant before, and stand by, is that crossdressing in and of itself doesn't violate anyone's rights.

Has anyone met a cross-dresser in real life who was NOT involved in violating the boundaries of others, especially women? Gaslighting, etc. Because I haven't.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yes, I've met male cross-dressers who were not involved in violating others' boundaries, particularly those of women. In the 1970s and 80s when androgyny was all the rage, there were quite a few of those blokes about, such as Marilyn Peter Robinson.

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

In the 70s and 80s? Irrelevant to the current situation.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

In the 70s and 80s? Irrelevant to the current situation.

Why is it irrelevant? You think basic human behavior changes so quickly that what happened 40-50 years ago is irrelevant? You really don't believe history matters? You've never heard the ancient proverb "coming events casts their shadows before"? Or "the past is prologue"?

Also, as a point of fact, I was replying to the following question of yours, in which you did not put a time-maker or give any indication that it was restricted to a particular period:

Has anyone met a cross-dresser in real life who was NOT involved in violating the boundaries of others, especially women? Gaslighting, etc.

Finally, you might want to reconsider responding to people by saying "irrelevant!" This seems to be a new knee-jerk rhetorical device employed by younger people for the purpose of writing off/blocking out info and POVs that don't fit with the pre-arranged narrative(s) in your head(s). Like calling people Nazis and saying "you're trash!"

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's simply irrelevant to the people who are dealing with narcissistic TIMs who don't respect boundaries, manipulate, lie, and bully, RIGHT NOW. We've got Trump on the right and TIMs and their supporters on the left. Exhausting.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for your thoughtful, kind response. Perhaps I overreacted to your claim that having a loved one come out as AGP would only cause "a very emotionally ambivalent experience." This seemed (in my view) to overlook, minimize, delegitimize and erase the experiences of all the people I know who felt shocked, betrayed, lied to, deeply hurt, exploited, gaslighted, disappointed - and yes, a great deal of anger - when their fathers, sons, brothers, uncles, co-workers announced they were women and demanded they be seen, treated and referred to as such.

If you're "an older Millennial who played sports from grade school through college," I guess you're around 40? If so, please talk to some women who grew up prior to US Title IX and who paved the way for you to participate in female sports from a young age on a fairly equal footing to males. Even after Title IX was passed in 1972, women had to fight for years to obtain equal funding, locker rooms, coaches, court & rink & pool & track time.

[–]soundsituation 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I appreciate this - I'm glad I was able to clarify my thoughts.

I'm mid-30s, and I wish I could talk to some of the pre-Title IX trailblazers but sadly I don't think I know any. The women in my life either graduated high school prior to 1972 or are around my age. I'll keep it in mind though should an opportunity present itself.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I hope you won't wait until an opportunity presents itself. Go find some older women & talk to them. Like you're doing here with me. Just email 'em, DM them, call them on the phone or engage online. It's not hard. British Olympian swimmer and feminist Sharron Davies is very approachable; when I've reached out to her, she's gotten back to me within hours.

Beth Seltzer, the woman who started the US org Save Women's Sports, is your age, and she has become friends and allies with a wide array of women of all ages (and a wide variety of races/ethnicities, political ideologies, classes, nationalities) through her activism. Including me. All I did was reach out to her and volunteer to help - and now we are fast friends.

Also, when I spoke of "women who grew up prior to US Title IX and who paved the way" I wasn't referring only to women who were "trailblazers." Sorry I didn't make that clearer. I meant ordinary women too. You see, Title IX affected & involved all girls & women, not just women into competitive sports or on the front lines of the women's liberation movement.

One of the most fundamental changes it brought was giving girls equal access to school PE. Perhaps you're not aware of this, but in the old days a lot of publicly-funded schools in the US provided boys with PE starting in early primary school, but girls didn't get PE until 9th or 10th grade - or not at all. What's more, prior to Title IX, girls' PE was mostly calisthenics & exercises to preserve our figures & fight fat - we weren't taught athletic skills.

Many women who graduated HS prior to 1972 & weren't athletic nonetheless supported & were thrilled by the passage of Title IX. It took many years prior to 1972 to get the legislation written, sponsored by Congress members, taken up by the appropriate committees, ushered through the House-Senate conferences & finally passed by the House & Senate.

Also, large numbers of women who graduated HS prior to 1972 were involved in the building of girls & women's sports during the phase-in and implementation period and afterwards.

Again, please don't passively wait for opportunities to present themselves. Carpe diem and all that. Best wishes.