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[–]FediNetizen 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I think the premise of your discussion, that the shootings were "perpetrated" by Rittenhouse, is not quite accurate.

I've spent a lot of time reviewing the Rittenhouse footage and reading the relevant laws, with findings detailed in this comment, and what it seems like so far is his actions were reasonable self-defense.

Specifically, Rittenhouse was being chased by an angry mob, one of whom had just pulled out a gun and fired it into the air. To Rittenhouse, this would be indistinguishable from one of the mob actually shooting at him. When you're being chased by an angry armed mob that isn't breaking off despite your attempts to flee, at that point it's reasonable to believe you are going to be gravely injured or killed, and the only way to prevent it is to shoot back.

The only things that could undermine his self-defense claim would be:

1) If the prosecution could show Rittenhouse did something to provoke the mob to attack him. I haven't found footage of what happened that caused the mob to start chasing Rittenhouse, so I can't say for sure that he didn't do something that would reasonably provoke them here he could use that as an excuse to shoot them.

However, based on some other information I would guess not. Specifically, the people chasing him that he shot all had notable criminal records (one was a convicted sex offender, another had been convicted on at least 2 separate counts of (serious) domestic abuse that included strangulation and false imprisonment, and the 3rd had been charged with felony burglary and a few other crimes, and at least one of them looked really agitated already when filmed earlier in the night confronting the militia Rittenhouse was a part of. It seems more likely that they were just aggressive men that started chasing him because he was separated from the group or something along those lines.

It could turn out I'm entirely wrong and Rittenhouse did do something to reasonably provoke them. Under Wisconsin state law, since he was fleeing he would have regained the privilege of self-defense, unless it can be shown that he provoked them with the intention of creating the situation where he could legally use lethal force.

2) The less likely reason his self-defense claim could be undermined is if the prosecution can convince a jury that either his belief that he was under the threat of serious bodily harm/death wasn't reasonable under the circumstances, or that his belief that lethal force was reasonably necessary to prevent the harm wasn't reasonable.

I don't see this one being the way they get him, because Rittenhouse was being chased by an angry mob, and right before the first shooting one of his pursuers pulled out a gun and fired it into the air, which to Rittenhouse wouldn't be distinguishable from being fired at.

[–]ImPiqued1111111[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I read today that the first man he killed was shot in the back.

Also, I'm not really giving the benefit of the doubt that a man ideologically opposed to the protests showed up there with an assault weapon. Was he really there not looking to start some shit?

Lastly, I agree that the men who were shot were trash for the reasons you mentioned, but Rittenhouse had no way of knowing that about them.

All of that said, as I mentioned, my take on what actually took place isn't based on a detailed understanding. The point I'm getting at is the volume of blame directed at the mother.

[–]lefterfield 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

While it's true that Rittenhouse wouldn't know about the men's criminal records, the fact that they have records for violent offenses makes it more likely that they attacked without provocation. I believe that's what they were getting at, I don't know the details of the case myself.

[–]jelliknight 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Well if we're judging people based on their prior actions, being a racist showing up to oppose a protest with a loaded gun you aren't legally allowed to carry is pretty fucking damning. Far more than any crime committed months or longer before the incident.

[–]BrokenEarth 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If you have evidence that he was racist I would like to see it. Also he was able to legally own and carry the gun he brought to the protest. The only person in this incident with a loaded gun they weren't legally allowed to carry was the convicted felon with a pistol who was shot in the arm.

[–]FediNetizen 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I can't find anything authoritative that confirms that Grosskreutz is really a felon. He was charged with felony burglary at some point, but there's no record of a felony conviction I can find, and charges get lowered during the court process all the time.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Um... I was only clarifying what someone else said about it, so maybe you want to respond to them instead? As it is, it sounds like previous protests had turned violent, which is the reason why they were bringing guns. I've said before that I don't think this kid should have been there, but the point of the criminal record of the people he shot is NOT "they were bad, they deserved it", but that there is a GREATER CHANCE they took aggressive actions.

[–]jelliknight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

the point of the criminal record of the people he shot is NOT "they were bad, they deserved it", but that there is a GREATER CHANCE they took aggressive actions.

And I'm disagreeing with you. One person committed a crime at some point in the past, the other showed up to THIS particular even with a weapon. The latter is the one more likely to be instigating.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have no idea how that follows.

[–]jelliknight 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think you're being deliberately obtuse.

One persons actions are long past. The others in in relation to and preparation for the current event under discussion.

Say we're talking about a bar fight. One person once got into a fight 3 years ago in very different circumstances, the other arrived at the bar wearing brass knuckles. Which of those two is more likely to be looking for a fight?

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And I think you're deliberately changing the facts to condemn someone you've decided is guilty. Say we're talking about two people. One has a proven history of violent assault. The other brings the most popular self-defense weapon with him to a situation with the potential to turn violent, given past incidents. The latter guy repeatedly tries to escape from the one with the history of violent assault, but is pursued and the violent-history person attempts to take his weapon away. We don't really need to know which of them initially came looking for a fight or who started the verbal argument - one was pursuing, one was chasing. The pursuer was looking for a fight. The ONLY relevance his history has on it is to provide CONTEXT for a situation that was already caused by him. His actions.

[–]OrneryStruggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol being a 'racist' (hearsay - proof?) and 'showing up' to be a volunteer field medic at a violent riot after being asked is worse than being a repeat offender pedophile, rapist and wife beater? Maybe you shouldn't be on a feminist forum if you think this.