Connection between HAES/Fat Acceptance and supporting men in women's sport?

submitted by eddyelric from self.GenderCritical

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[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Who are you addressing? I've never supported any of the things you're saying.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

HAES is a method/strategy of helping fat people become healthier and you are arguing that it is wrong and you think you should shame and discourage people who want to improve their health as fat people. Not sure what's confusing.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I never said HAES itself is wrong, actually, but what I've seen of fat acceptance from INDIVIDUALS is a complete denial that obesity leads to more health problems. It does. That doesn't mean skinny people are always healthy or that overweight people are always unhealthy, but ignoring the actual risks doesn't help anyone get healthier either. I also never said we should discourage people who want to improve their health, that's a ridiculous claim and a distortion of what I did say - everyone should seek to improve their health. But if someone is not doing so at all, I don't think it's helpful for their friends and family to quietly sit by, or cheer them on as "valid" for their life choices - which is often what seems to happen.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Your original comment very clearly did imply that you think HAES itself is wrong. It was a response to the OP which said there's a type of women who support HAES philosophy and you put it down to "a general psychology of never wanting to tell anyone they're wrong, even when they're doing things that harm themselves or others". I then responded "imagine thinking that it makes sense to "tell fat people they are wrong" for being fat and wanting to eat healthy/exercise" and you responded "Sometimes we have to be "judgmental" and tell people that we think they're hurting themselves by continuing their behavior." If this is not a clear implication that you think you "have to" tell fat people they are wrong for wanting to be healthy and exercise, I don't know what it is. It seems pretty unambiguous to me in context but maybe you meant something different.

No one is denying that obesity can led to health problems, including the obesity researchers who started the HAES initiative. The point is that you are telling people you need to tell them they are wrong for TRYING TO IMPROVE THEIR HEALTH. Which is what HAES is about. It is about people trying to improve their health, independent of their size.

You are saying you feel like you have to tell friends and famiy members who are fat and trying to improve their health that they are wrong for doing so. There's nothing at all positive or defensible about this position.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yeah, I don't believe I said that, anywhere. I've stated my explanation for what I've seen from fat acceptance online, and if I'm wrong about it and HAES never gives the same impression - cool. Then I'm wrong. I'm not going around telling fat people to fuck off about trying to get healthy, as you're claiming.

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I just directly quoted your previous posts, see above.

"fat acceptance" (whatever that means) is not the same as HAES, which is a health initiative started by a group of obesity researchers to combat the counterproductive weight loss methods hitherto touted by the medical establishment, which were historically making obese people fatter and sicker. Clinical trials of HAES methodologies show that people on HAES interventions tend to lose a similar amount of weight as people on other diet/exercise interventions (so, a small amount that is often regained) but their overall health improves more than it does on other interventions. There are no downsides to this that I can see except that a lot of people are big mad that fat people have the audacity to put their general health higher on their priority list than looking socially acceptable.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Again. I explained my impression of what fat acceptance was and why I find it questionable. You still insist on holding THAT BELIEF to an organization that you say is unrelated. Therefore, I guess, I'm a monster who hates fat people and wants them to be unhealthy.

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, I appreciate your clarification. I'm explaining to you what HAES actually is and where I see the smearing of HAES initiatives as coming from. I have seen threads like this on r/GC for years, typically made by different people and with a large number of upvotes, so I'm assuming people either have no idea what HAES is about or are genuinely upset that a "third way" has been suggested for fat people which doesn't involve obsessively fixating on their looks and the number on the scale. I find it plausible that most people are the former and some are the latter, but someone is leading a smear campaign against a science-backed health initiative and it's upsetting to see it amplified, as someone who 'HAES' ideas have helped tremendously (I am also a scientist and I don't like the smearing of perfectly good science for ideological reasons either).

I don't think thin people who are prejudiced against fat people are monsters, ftr, just like I don't think male-aligned women who throw other women under the bus (e.g. Republican women etc) are monsters. We live in a society that treats some groups of people worse than others and provides handy excuses for those people to perpetuate the bigotry and feel good about it. Some of those excuses are extremely convincing. I'm not going to mince words about how stupid I find the excuses though. I'm not here to be nice and apologetic about my views - I wouldn't be gender critical if I was. I also think GC women should know better than to uncritically accept propaganda that's essentially based on tapping people's outrage that some women (LBR it's mostly women who are targeted) don't look socially acceptable and appealing/attractive, and sometimes don't even want to. HAES is so universally panned as a strategy (even though it effectively improves people's health) because it tells fat people (women, mostly) to prioritize their health over their looks and to reframe their health behaviours as HEALTH behaviours rather than a magical fix for their size. A lot of people are not very happy with this at all.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Alright, fair enough.