Do you guys think men and women have different brains?

BewitchedSam · 2020-08-21T01:09:02+00:00

I'm a neuropsych major. From what I've learned there is some controversy in the field about this. Some studies have shown that men typically have more grey matter and women have more white matter. However, more recent studies have shown that the distributions overlap and it's not always in predictable ways. There are size differences between male and female brains but research has shown that this corresponds with body sizes. Something to keep in mind is historically brain differences have been used to as a justification for sexism and racism. So I approach such studies with skepticism and try to look for signs of bias on the researchers part.

MarkTwainiac · 2020-08-21T02:42:31+00:00

I've no problem with the idea that there are myriad physical differences between the two sexes apart from our sex organs. After all, every cell in our bodies contains our sex chromosomes. So to me it doesn't seem surprising that male & females have different skeletons, levels of bone density, skull thickness, heart & lung capacity, levels of blood oxygenation, immune responses and so on... Nor does it surprise me that evidence is emerging that a number of non-sexed organs such as the kidneys & liver function differently in the two sexes. As a result, I'm open to the possibility that there might be some sex differences in the brain, too.

What I don't give credence to is the idea - which Soh promotes - that if it can be shown there are appreciable differences in male & female brains (which IMO at this point in time remains a very big IF) then this means a) all these differences are inherent & present from birth, and b) these (relatively small) differences cause male & female brains to function in entirely different ways & are the principal reason that some males & some females display behaviors, interests, personal style & grooming preferences that conform to rigid sex stereotypes of masculinity & femininity.

Soh & other sexist genderists like her think that it's natural & innate for males to be "masculine" & females to be "feminine" - and they further believe that the way "masculine" and "feminine" are defined in Western culture in 2020 is the way "masculine" & "feminine" have always been defined in all cultures throughout human history.

The brain scans that Soh focuses on & makes such a big deal of were all done on adults, & very small numbers of adults too. The only way scientists can determine if there actually are significant brain differences in males & females would be to do brain scans of large numbers of people in tightly controlled groups from the day of birth (or before), then to repeat the scans on a regular & frequent basis throughout the course of the subjects' entire lives. And all the while, all the other myriad forces potentially impacting the brain - socialization, trauma, illness, hormone levels, etc - would have to be carefully monitored, documented and taken into account.

BTW, I pre-ordered Soh's book, and approached it with an open mind. But I found it to be very badly written, poorly reasoned & quite confused. Her POV struck me as incredibly sexist, classist, ageist, solipsistic, myopic, contradictory & muddled.

The book is full of errors & outrageous, untrue assertions such as "no one is 100% male or 100% female." Throughout she confuses gender with sex, and masculinity & femininity with male & female.

Soh also doesn't seem to know anything beyond her narrow field, and is not well-versed - or at all versed - in such topics as history, anthropology, psychology, child development, various religions or feminism. I got the impression she has never travelled outside North America, considered other cultures or historical eras, or spoken to many (or any) women who are different to her in terms of age, education, upbringing, country of origin, life experience, etc. She particularly seems to have a low opinion of - indeed, a loathing for - women who've carried pregnancies to term & given birth.

artetolife · 2020-08-21T00:12:42+00:00

No. If it was that easy then trans can just go for a scan and get approved for transition, but that's not what happens.

yishengqingwa666 · 2020-08-21T00:55:23+00:00

No.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn28582-scans-prove-theres-no-such-thing-as-a-male-or-female-brain

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811915007697

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2018.00399/full

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

https://www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/whats-on/the-neuroscientist-shattering-the-myth-of-the-gendered-brain-9086242/

https://theconversation.com/brain-scientists-havent-been-able-to-find-major-differences-between-womens-and-mens-brains-despite-over-a-century-of-searching-143516

lefterfield · 2020-08-21T00:19:56+00:00

You can't tell a male from a female by looking at brain scans. So I don't know what this "scientist" means by different brains.

Morningmist · 2020-08-21T01:56:22+00:00

Masculinity is already seen as the gold standard.

itsnotaboutewe · 2020-08-21T03:02:14+00:00

Males and females of most species exhibit different behaviours according to their sex but that doesn't mean their brains are different. It is their hormones and millions of years of instinctive learning that each sex has that makes them act differently. For instance, in some birds it is the male that builds the nest so the females have no nest building urge. The female inspects the nest and either approves of it or goes in search of a male with better skills, but that doesn't mean their brains are different. It means that the sexes have different roles to play in procreation and they act upon that. Penguins have similar roles between the sexes and it is only the actual mating and egg laying that sets the sex roles apart. There have been many instances of two penguin males raising a chick but they have to be given or steal an egg and there is no evidence to suggest they are homosexual, just that they both think the other is to play the female sex role. Their sex roles after the laying of an egg is the same for a male or female.

Dr Soh also believes in gender as being linked to these sex roles, but if that is the case it would mean every animal has a gender, which I reject. I consider gender to be a social construct totally separate to sex roles, which are innate. I breed sheep and I know that ewes and rams have different roles in the flock which are dependent on their sex. A ram will change his role in the flock if I castrate him but he will not turn into a ewe or have a ewe's brain. He will still be male with a male brain but his sex role has changed so his behaviour changes accordingly.

purrfect · 2020-08-21T09:40:24+00:00

I don't dislike Debra Soh, but after watching a few interviews, I don't find her particularly clear about concepts and what she means. She often mixes up gender and sex and I keep correcting her in my mind, until I get confused myself.

Anyway, you ask: shouldn't a neuroscientist know this? I've followed a few neuroscientists with all kind of points of view and I suspect many of them are afraid of saying out loud stuff that could justify certain attitudes and also some fear cancellation. It's dangerous territory, whether we like it or not. So here it goes:

On average, male and female brains differ slightly in size and structurally. It makes sense, because one sex is usually bigger than the other and have different sex organs and hormone production. The key words here are "on average". I remember one neuroscientist saying, that if they had nothing but the brain (and before doing any genetic test to confirm), they'd still be capable of guessing if it belonged to a male or a female at high rates, but not always, because there are "overlapping brains". This definitely doesn't mean there are cognitive differences, because there aren't any, according to studies.
Innate gendered behavior: I believe some of it is innate on average (magical words!). I think most animals have it, too: mating rituals, offspring rearing, etc... For instance, do I think violence is gendered? Yes, I do. Most men have a greater tendency to violence than women, although that doesn't mean there aren't meek men or violent women. I mean, men's skeletal structure is built for fighting. So no, I don't believe all of the gender roles are cultural, but I do think the great majority of them are.
I think Debra Soh has tunnel vision. She admitted she doesn't like feminists, because some tried to suppress and deny research in this field, so scientists had to walk on eggshells. She has some undeniable resentment and bias, even if she makes some good points. She also has a tendency to try and shield herself from accusations of transphobia with constant assertions that transitioning in adulthood can be beneficial. It's not going to work, Debra!
I think much more research is needed. And I mean research that isn't censored or even self censored. The more studies we have about this, the better. I'd rather have the truth and work from that.

anxietyaccount8 · 2020-08-21T18:53:26+00:00

Radical feminists believe that the majority of gendered brain differences are because of nurture. Ms. Soh is not really part of the gender critical movement. I don't know why I'm seeing GC people on Twitter support her.

Terfenclaw · 2020-08-21T02:26:08+00:00

I think there are slight differences on the population level that are meaningless at the individual level, and these get overemphasized.

MezozoicGay · 2020-08-21T08:41:09+00:00

I haven't read book completely, but on all podcasts I saw she was saying that it is brain reactions that are different, not brains themselves. And that it can be spotted if a person is homosexual by showing them hot pictures of different sexes by reaction in their brain on those pictures, while brains themselves are the same (what makes sense, as homosexuality is inherent, so gay man reacting on hot men same as straight man reacting on hot women is logical conclusion even without brain scans). And she is saying that so far there no possibility to find transgendor like that, as most their reactions are the same as they are supposed to be of their original sex. However, people still can take this as "brains are different, or why they have different reactions?!" and weaponize.

cokolada90 · 2020-08-21T07:59:07+00:00

Yes and no. I don't think that gender is entirely a social construct because there are definitely biological elements to it. Take young children for example, they will play, develop and pick up on social cues in different ways depending on whether they are male or female. For instance, I don't think it's plausible that there is a social reason why female babies cry more than male babies, or why girls develop fine motor skills when boys are developing gross motor skills, or why girls prefer playing with dolls and boys prefer rough and tumble play. However, what is harder to determine is whether those differences are created by an inherently different female / male brain or something else, like hormones in the womb or whatever. Some of the cases of surgery on cloacal extrophy kids (basically giving them cross sex surgery because they had some sort of birth defect) and the kids would grow up to be male despite being raised as female. So I think there is something innate about 'gender'. There also seem to be different reactions to different stimuli in brains based upon whether someone is male and female. Interestingly the study on transgender women that showed reactions that were somewhere between men and women, however it's debated whether this is just what the brains of gay men would look like (because their brains also look a bit like women's).

Nonetheless, I think a lot of this stuff often gets way overstated and used to justify sexist beliefs. Statistically speaking men and women have pretty similar abilities, so it is hard to tell how much difference between them is nature vs nurture. I also think it's hard to tell whether the above described is due to 'brain sex', or due to hormones, or social development. I think the brain differences get overstated too, for example there is more difference between an autistic brain and a non-autistic brain, and between and violinist's brain and a pianists brain than a male and female brain.

Disclaimer: I have learnt what I know from google, I don't have a science degree.

CleverNickName · 2020-08-22T12:52:48+00:00

Also, even if you scan 7 billion brains, and 99% of women's brains match with each other, and then you find 1% of WomanBrain™ in men

would that really change anything? It wouldn't make the men women, any more than whatever other biological irregularities human bodies throw at men and women.

Women tend to generally be a few centimeters shorter than men (global average of 7% acc. to a quick google). Tall women aren't men, or even masculine. They're not transmen. What if it turns out all tall women have ManBrain™?? Is my mom my dad???

SameOldBS · 2020-08-21T10:03:38+00:00

Didn't someone take MRI scans of men and women solving a problem, and men's brains lit up in just one area and women's brains lit up in lots of different areas? Or have I misremembered?

lestratege · 2020-08-22T06:28:52+00:00

Here is a presentation about brain differences in the brain. Click Cc for English subs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXUS0MRcFWM

fuckingsealions · 2020-08-21T05:37:13+00:00

She gives me spectrum vibes, Wich can make some people very tunnel-visioned.

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