all 17 comments

[–]GConly 47 insightful - 2 fun47 insightful - 1 fun48 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

In 2016 72 per cent were comfortable with it compared to 66 per cent in the survey.

And its only as high as it is because most of the population think all transwomen are post surgical HSTS.

When specifically asked if an intact male was okay to use womens facilities like these because they ID as a woman, more than 80% said no.

[–]meranii 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep, I think the general public is mostly unaware of what "self ID" for trans people actually means and how it would obliterate women's rights to have safety in female spaces, how even the most blatant pervs could gain entry and not be removed anymore. They were trying to smuggle that into British law before people were fully informed because it is fundamentally ridiculous.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What the general public is not aware of is that according to trans lobby and research organizations themselves,more than 90% of all TIMs regardless of their sexual orientation have not had, nor do they desire or will ever seek, any genital surgeries. Most of these guys like their dicks and balls just fine. They just want to rebrand them as female organs. Hence, lady dick, girl cock, brovaries and renaming the prostate as a "trans girl's G spot."

(I know old school "transsexuals" who say that the percentage of TIMs today who have their dicks and balls and plan to keep 'em is actually more like 98.5%.)

What's more, 80% of so-called "trans women" are heterosexual males whose motivation for claiming to be women is the paraphilia or sexual fetish known as autogynephilia - which is the tendency of some males to become sexually aroused by the idea of themselves as female.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

HSTS

What does that mean?

[–]anfd 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Homosexual transsexual (as opposed to autogynephilic transsexual). This is Ray Blanchard's transsexualism typology:

Michael Bailey, who supports this typology, describes it like this:

The two types of transsexuals who begin life as males are called homosexual and autogynephilic. Once understood, these names are appropriate. Succinctly put, homosexual male-to-female transsexuals are extremely feminine gay men, and autogynephilic transsexuals are men erotically obsessed with the image of themselves as women. When most people hear “transsexual” they think of the homosexual transsexual, who fits the classic pattern. From soon after birth, the homosexual male-to-female transsexual behaves and feels like a girl. [...] Honest and open autogynephilic transsexuals reveal a much different pattern. They were not especially feminine boys. The first overt manifestation of what led to their transsexualism was typically during early adolescence, when they secretly dressed in their mothers’ or sisters’ lingerie [...] Autogynephilic transsexuals might declare attraction to women or men, to both, or to neither. But their primary attraction is to the women that they would become [...] (The Man Who Would Be Queen, 2003, p. 146–147)

Many TRA's don't accept this. Alice Dreger, who studied the reception of Bailey's book, writes that this is because

there is the running theme started in the Preface [of Bailey's book] of the feminine essence narrative being a sometimes-willful lie told to cover up a sexual fetish, namely autogynephilia, and the associated theme that virtually all ‘‘non-homosexual transsexuals’’ are autogynephilic, no matter what they claim about themselves and their histories [...]" (p. 381)

So the division into HSTS and ATS implies that some transsexuals (namely, the ATS ones) have sexual or fetishistic motives, rather than every transwoman being a simple case of "a woman trapped in a man's body" (i.e. "the feminine essence narrative").

Dreger writes further:

I’m not sure that the simplistic feminine essence narrative is necessarily any better for transwomen than Blanchard’s typology. In doing research for this project, I have been disturbed to see the extent to which transwomen, in order to speak and be heard, seem to feel obliged to completely deny the role of eroticism in their decisions to undergo sex reassignment [...] Historically, this de-eroticization of transsexuals’ life narratives has been promoted not only by certain transwomen like Christine Jorgensen but also, importantly, by the medical professionals who have acted as gatekeepers to sex reassignment. After all, in the past, some influential clinicians claimed that confession of a single instance of sexual arousal associated with crossdressing should eliminate a patient from consideration of a diagnosis of transsexualism and thus also from consideration of sex reassignment [...] (p. 416)

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Awesome, thank you!

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

But just to clarify: autogynephilia is not exclusive to heterosexual men who decide to "transition." Many men with AGP decide to deal with it in other ways.

Also, gay males can have AGP as well, whether or not they ID as trans or have medical treatment to "transition." This has always been the case. Even back when Ray Blanchard came up with his typology, AGP was seen in a fair number of the HSTS population. For them, it was an additional motivation for their trans identity, whereas for AGP straight men it was the sole motivation.

Especially nowadays with the vast influence of internet porn, hentai, fetishism, sissy hypno, drag queen culture, lives lived in fantasy land online, and heightened sex stereotypes, etc, a large and growing number of homosexual young men also are autogynephiles. This is true whether they ID as trans or not.

A lovely young gay man posted a video on YT a while back that was discussed on here in which he revealed he'd previously identified as a "trans woman" because he was both gay and AGP. I'll try to find it and post a link later.

[–]our_team_is_winning 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When specifically asked if an intact male was okay to use womens facilities like these because they ID as a woman, more than 80% said no.

20% of the people around me are not only insane then, but they would compromise female safety with their insanity. 1 in 5 is no small number.

[–]Comatoast 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I think a lot of folks end up thinking that all TiMs immediately jump on the surgery bus and come out as eunuchs in a dress because they're presented as absolutely harmless. How could they hurt anyone without their man bits, etc. How exactly do these protections work if you're declaring nonbinary? Can you just say that you're feeling feminine that day and put on a headband and go show off your nutsack in a women's gym locker room, or do you have to self-ID as female?

[–]luckystar 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

I had an debate over this topic recently that was so wild. I gave some photos of Danielle Muscato (who actually did use a women's shelter), the Gamestop Ma'am, Yaniv, etc as examples of people who would make women in women's shelters feel unsafe and my friend agreed. But her suggestion was to have a separate space for trans women at women's shelters, so they are isolated from the women. So... basically sex segregated shelters again lol. I think most people deep down know this stuff is fucked up, but they've been conditioned with TWAW to the point where their brains kinda short fuse at the situations where there are obvious problems.

[–]our_team_is_winning 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I wish TiM would not use the word "woman" in any way. It's misleading (deliberately!) It's Gender Cosplay at best. But then GC is our abbreviation.

[–]luckystar 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Oh, I am sympathetic to that. (Disclosure - I consider myself strongly GC leaning but not 100% GC, but I like to hang out on all the forums.) Personally I'm ok with "Trans women are trans women" but I think we absolutely need to be clear that they're not women in the biological sense and "woman" alone is not an appropriate descriptor. It always feels a bit off to me to refer to some trans women as men (not the examples I gave in my post above, but say, somebody like Blaire White or Nikkie Tutorials). They've gotten to that point where I can't fully see them as men anymore. I think trans woman and trans man are useful terms to acknowledge that they exist as a social group without trying to pretend that they are literally the same as biological men and women. I think it's ultimately hurtful to the trans people themselves because the more society promotes the delusion that one day they'll be a "real girl/boy" the more they will chase after an unachievable goal and ultimately the worse they will feel.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Back in the day, gay men like that called themselves and were known simply as transvestites. And all the straight men with autogynephilia were simply called cross-dressers. Now they all claim to be some kind of "women" - and with that claim, they're all demanding that women budge up and include them in all the spaces, programs and protections for females that women lobbied for, and often created on our own with no government support. Not only are these guys shooting themselves in the foot by chasing an unachievable goal, but they seem intent on destroying women's rights.

[–]our_team_is_winning 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah, Blaire White seems almost likeable. Non threatening anyway. In my head I always think of him as "gay guy" or "effeminate gay guy." I still don't understand why he couldn't keep his original body and just enjoy being a gay guy. I saw a video of him at the gym prancing around like Peggy Bundy, like a parody of a woman. That irritates me because it seems like a mockery of women. That Rose of Dawn Youtuber seems like a decent person as well.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He at one point told a woman that she "needed some dick" so no, he's no better than any other misogynist male.

[–]Binah17 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They seem reasonable but then they start fangirling over Trump to get that conservative validation.

[–]jkfinn 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

oh my, i read this headline as refugees (British use of refuges in plural is not used in the USA) and I was questioning whether their racism had become this blatant. And wondered how there cd be a decline in support for something so secret from myself. Oh well, 6 sentences into it...