I love how warm & civilized s/Gendercritical is - so this is what a women’s space feels like

submitted by dandeliondynasty from (self.GenderCritical)

This message board has some of the most polite discussions I’ve ever seen online. The social media interactions I’m used to are usually me politely disagreeing and getting swearing and name calling back. I recently responded to a political post in a women’s group, some women politely disagreed with me, and then some transwomen and non-binary men made some rude, personal attacks, including new posts quoting and insulting me. All I said was not all LGBT people are radical liberals on all issues and I myself have some centrist views. I guess they hate the idea of unbundling the far left platform because if you look at the TRA agenda alone it is not palatable to most people. I know TRA unpleasantness happens all the time but it was a nasty shock for me to have a polite discussion in a women’s group derailed like this - the personal attacks remind me of abusive male bosses I’ve had, because of course that’s what their kind are.

I was pleasantly surprised to find in s/GC that when people disagree with my posts they critique the content instead of attacking me and provide some information to back up their claim. I don’t want to “tone police” anyone because people are right to get upset and angry about the issues we discuss here, but I just wanted to say I appreciate that the typical response I’ve seen here to disagreements is a calm, evidence based discussion. Amazing.

all 23 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]moody_ape 32 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 0 fun33 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

i'm glad you enjoy this space. it would make no sense to criticize TRAs and treat those who disagree with us the same way TRAs treat those who disagree with them, right? it's important to talk about things without being rude or violent, otherwise people won't listen.

[–]vitunrotta 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Can I like this comment a hundred times, please?

[–]BEB 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Respect for each other is paramount. We are all in this struggle together, no matter what our views are on other ssues, each of us deserves credit for being able to think for ourselves in a time of universal trans lobby propaganda and woman-shaming.

But in terms of activism, while I've only lurked on GC spaces until now, I have done a lot of work IRL. I am quite forceful when I talk to politicians' offices about GC issues. Depending on how they initially respond to me - some politicians' staff are quite rude about transgender topics - sometimes I really get in their faces and don't back down.

I bombard them with facts, and ask hypotheticals, such as, "So if Bruce Jenner had decided to ID as a black man, would Senator Pork have been cool with him receiving Black Man of the Year? Would Senator Pork be onboard with a young Bruce Jenner being given scholarships meant for minorities?"

Men, and especially trans demands activists, count on women being nice. Count on us not being willing to get into it with them. IMO, they can go F themselves - I never thought, decades ago during the fight for the Equal Rights Amendment, that in 2020 I would be fighting for some of the same rights my grandmother fought for. But then, misogyny seems eternal.

[–]vitunrotta 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I bombard them with facts, and ask hypotheticals, such as, "So if Bruce Jenner had decided to ID as a black man, would Senator Pork have been cool with him receiving Black Man of the Year? Would Senator Pork be onboard with a young Bruce Jenner being given scholarships meant for minorities?"

You are my new hero. Indeed - sometimes you just gotta go fucking hard and be relentless until they manage to utter anything sounding like an opinion.

I take you're from the States? Your entire political voting/polling/pretty-much-anything system is just so... off. :/ That's not to say we don't have PLENTY of corrupt darlings here in Europe for example, but sometimes when y'all say you're the "free world..." the entire Northern Europe has a gigantic eyeroll and then goes recycle everything they ever owned.

[–]BEB 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, I get in politicians' staffers faces about the conflict between women's basic human rights and transgender lobby demands - you would be shocked how rude Democratic political operatives can be in defense of transgender demands activism.

I had a Senate Democrat's staffer, a woman, tell me that women who'd been raped who feared men in women's locker rooms need to "get over it."

Honestly, the most passionate defenders of gender ideology tend to be young, female staffers.

But if you want to be really fucking enraged, watch the US House Judiciary Committee's Equality Act hearings from last year (April or May 2019). These Democratic House members, most notably Nadler, Lieu and Jayapal - all considered the most Woke of the Woke, treated gender critical speakers so incredibly rudely that each of them deserve to lose their offices.

Yeah our two-party political system, controlled by lobbyists, leaves a lot to be desired.

But mericans are indoctrinated from kindergarten onwards that the US is the "Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave" and that we have the very bestest country in the world.

And only a very small percentage of Americans (used to be under 15%) have passports, so Americans don't travel and so don't see the delightful and amazing aspects of other countries, including things like universal health care that works.

We're on our way to being a Banana Republic, just watch.

[–]gparmesan 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

join us on Ovarit.com as well :)

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wow, looks fancy. How do I join?

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can PM the person who made this post and get an invite code. It's in its early stages but I really like how there are plans for off-topic subjects in the future.

[–]dandeliondynasty[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Will do, thank you!

[–]MarkTwainiac 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Yes, most of us here do try to remain civil, as we did on r/CG. However, it's not all sweetness & light and good manners here either. At around the same time you were making your post, OP, someone on another thread called me an "asshole" for disagreeing with her on a single point.

And in the past couple of days, I've reported three different posts for containing shockingly racist content - and another for using sexist slurs.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're doing great work with the reporting.

At around the same time you were making your post, OP, someone on another thread called me an "asshole" for disagreeing with her on a single point.

I've encountered some people lashing out as well. Thankfully most people are civil.

[–]dandeliondynasty[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow, I see the civility doesn’t make itself. Thank you for your hard work!

[–]Criticalofgender 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Actually, most women here are so knowledgeable about gender issues and so polite that that's why I became GC! As some have said before, not all of us are like that but, for the most part and in my experience, they are super lovely and intelligent! I just remember how disappointed and sad I was when they banned GC from reddit and how people were saying that we were really violent which is far from the truth

[–]TheLesbean 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a really nice space. I’m glad I came across this

[–]meranii 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I agree, insulting someone you're having a polite discussion with is wrong and I also really like this space and how we interact. Honestly, people being super-rude online and exploding in rage at minor disagreements is something I consider a "man problem", lots of dudes never learned to control their emotions and they quickly turn to hatred and threats when they get frustrated. We're not like that and GC being mainly female is a big reason, IMO.

That being said, I think it holds us women back when we always HAVE TO be polite and civil no matter what. I've seen inappropriate tone policing here a few times, and a couple of days ago I got a comment saying "this makes us all look bad" when I commented that a TiM (who had disseminated leaflets asking for TERFs to be punched in the throat) was just jealous of women's throats because he had a fat manly neck. Which, sure, isn't nice to say but this guy was literally instigating violence against women. I dealt with my anger at this by joking about his motives and I don't think we have to be perfect angels all the time. My opinion is also just my own, women are not a hivemind, if you don't like my comment it still cannot "make us all look bad".

TRAs will not give us an inch no matter how nice we are, and "the mainstream" barely cares about women's issues anyway. Early suffragettes fighting for their rights literally got into fist fights with men who wanted to stop them from protesting and extreme civil disobedience was a main tool in reaching their goals. Now of course this is a far cry from how we act toward each other, but we are not emotionless nice little ladies all having a tea party together. We are here because we're angry at injustice. Perfectly behaved fembots is how men want women to be, and we have to accept that things might get a little heated here sometimes.

[–]BEB 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's so important, I think, that we each approach this issue in our own way. That, while uniting for activism, we make it clear to our detractors that we are not a hive mind and that some of us will yell and break things, while others will try to gently persuade.

Some of us are liberals and some of us are conservatives and some of us are a mixture of the two, but we are united on the right of women to self-determination (which includes sports) and sex-segregated spaces.

And, once women wake up to what's actually happened, we will be unstoppable.

[–]PandorasAquarium 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

r/GC was mercilessly vilified all over Reddit for being a hate sub. I went there out of curiosity and found that it was warm, sensible and honest without being unkind. I subbed and could never understand the hatred it got. I saw lots of other women come in ready to argue against the supposed "hate speech" we were apparently engaging in. They stayed like I did.

People just see that you're Gender Critical or a Radical Feminist and think that automatically translates into 'raging Transphobe'. That is utterly ridiculous. We care about women and girls. We centre women and girls. That's all.

I certainly don't hate anyone, and I've never seen hatred being thrown at anyone else in GC spaces. I've seen disagreements, yes, but people can respect other's opinions without resorting to violence and threats. It's how we grow.

[–]Delia 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I go all over the place reading feminist pages and no one ever abuses me, this is why I have always loved the company of women who love women. They will disagree with me gently, but never rudely or harshly and I am the same. It is not sisterly to abuse your sisters at least that is what I was taught since young

[–]SameOldBS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

It's also much more welcoming than Mumsnet, which I've found very cliquey and hard to break into.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's so interesting. I've been on the Mumsnet feminism/women's rights board for years, and I've found it to be a model of civility. Sometimes it's snarky, and there's a lot of swearing, but the overall tone is very civil. The women there strike me as extremely well informed - sometimes astoundingly so - intelligent, quick-witted, funny, with tons of IRL experience and an understanding of history and different cultures. They are also ace at debating. Sometimes, reading a thread there is like watching Wimbledon tennis.

AIBU and other sections of Mumsnet are another story, though.

But to each her own.

[–]SameOldBS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I went from lurking to participating there a few months back. I've found the debate to be interesting and civil, yes, but there's a strong sense that if you're not in the clique, you're regarded with some suspicion. I posted something that generated a lot of debate, and one of the main contributors actually questioned in the thread if I was legit or some kind of stooge. So I DMed her and tried to reassure her that I was a real and GC woman and she didn't even reply.

I think it's partly the format which makes it hard to reply to specific people and have a conversation, so it feels like any comment you make gets lost.

Absolutely agree there's some stunningly intelligent and informed people on there though, and I still interact. I just don't find it very friendly.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

My guess is she didn't read the DM. Many of us don't read our DMs on sites like this because they're usually full of horrific abuse.

[–]SameOldBS 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Maybe. But I did reply to her in the thread saying I'd DM her. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I do understand why people would be wary of newcomers. I think there's just more sense of an in group over there than here, perhaps because this is less established.