Another TIF wins bathroom suit (it's always a TIF plowing the way isn't it)

submitted by WrongToy from (self.GenderCritical)

NVIDIA's next-gen GeForce Ampere GPUs may arrive August 31, teaser hints Pandemic preparedness and response under a different president NBC News logoTeen wins transgender rights suit in federal court

After a three-year legal battle, a transgender teen in Florida has emerged victorious in a federal lawsuit over equal access to restrooms.

On Friday, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit upheld a lower court ruling in favor of the teen, Drew Adams, 19, ordering the school board in St. Johns County, Florida, to allow transgender students to use bathrooms that align with their gender identity.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/teen-wins-transgender-rights-suit-in-federal-court/ar-BB17NOFA

Why is this making page one of MSN's feed, probably for the same reason Kamala Harris of "she/her" fame who now wants California to incarcerate intact TIMs with women will be VP.

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[–]jkfinn 30 insightful - 2 fun30 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's a TIF leading the way for the same reason that rapists very often select a female lawyer to defend them. Women's integrity & civility are being exploited to validate questionable or criminal male acts/endeavors, and this in turn serves to divide the female opposition to those same actions and actors.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

“High school is hard enough without having your school separate you from your peers and mark you as inferior,”

OK. I had a hard AF time as the nerd, tall one in school. High school was a nightmare to me in every arena. I agree with high school being really hard, depending on if your parents had money, any of that.

No one marked her as inferior. That's a lie. No one said she is less than. Bathrooms were segregated years ago for the safety of females, as males cannot stop themselves from harassing, assaulting, and raping women in bathrooms. This is why they were separated in the very first place, in the US, for privacy, and for safety. Nothing more. Not to put on lipstick. Nothing more.

Your peers are females.

Sigh.

Luckily, this was a lower court, and this I do not think is done yet. Republicans have to much of a foothold in Florida to stop there.

As an aside, someone asked about the Women's Liberation Front aligning with the right and why would they do this, even though the views are not shared at all, just a slight overlap in this one area.

It is most likely because feminists cannot lobby. They do not have the resources. I do not know if that is preaching to the choir, but someone else mentioned why that was, and that apparently new feminist groups are forming. Do you have money? Are you going to lobby? Do you have lawyers? No?

Then that is why friends.

Feck. NO cigar yet. Wait.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All the lawsuits for loo and locker room access in schools that TIFs have won in the US so far seem to have taken so long to get through the courts that by the time the decisions have finally been issued, the TIFs who filed the suits have already aged out of, or graduated from, HS. Gavin Grimm was no longer in HS when she finally won her case - and at 19 the girl in this lawsuit shouldn't still be in HS either. Which means that for now, these court victories are on paper only.

But whenever on-site schooling starts again in the US, it's highly unlikely that JHS and HS boys are gonna be happy when they find that the girls in their schools who are now identifying as trans actually begin using the boys' loos, locker rooms and showers. Especially since in so many schools, girls in friendship groups are now coming out as trans all at once. Which means not one or two girls invading the boys' spaces, but a bunch of them.

Despite young males' Porkys-style fantasies about peeking in on the girls in their loos, locker rooms and similar spaces, the fact is many adolescent boys are extremely self-conscious about their developing bodies just as girls are. For that and a host of other reasons (such as adolescent boys' tendency to get embarrassing spontaneous erections and to stink after exercise, and their desire for male-only camaraderie), I think a lot of them are really going to resent having to be in states of undress in the company of girls who now identify as trans. Especially since the boys probably grew up with these girls and have been schoolmates for years.

As the trans movement and all of social media make clear, when boys don't get their way, they tend to make their displeasure known. Loudly and rudely. And they, being males, tend to get listened to as well. So court decisions such as this one seem to be only the first shots in what is bound to be a long, drawn-out series of skirmishes - and perhaps an all-out war.

[–]our_team_is_winning 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I saw this today and felt ill. I really hate that "it's hard enough being a high school student without...." line. Teenage boys have the right to use the toilet without a female being in there. Teenage girls have the right to use the toilet without a young Yaniv type being in there. It's hard enough being a high schooler without having sex-segregated areas compromised to feed a few people's delusions.

I get REALLY grossed out about trans surgeries, and surgeries in general. Can someone tell me if TIF have to pee standing up? I don't spend a lot of time thinking about male urination ok, but I THINK men can actually sit down, but if you don't have an actual penis, how do you use a urinal? Do they operate on TIF so that they can urinate on their feet like men? Well I guess women could too, but it sounds messy. From the photo I saw with the article (on a different news site, but maybe the same photo) she just looked like a girl with short hair. She would hardly stand out in the women's room.

[–]WrongToy[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

When we went up to stay with a friend he mentioned in front of us that we would both have to sit down to pee. SO is male (plus the friend of this male) so when we were home I asked about it.

Yes, it's possible. He did not want to go into the details about how it is but apparently the penis can be redirected from a sitting position to aim into the bowl. It is counterintuitive however.

Most TIF don't get to bottom surgery, and if they do usually ligaments around the clitoris are severed so that it appears larger, but you're not actually peeing through it. That's only possible by having a peniplasty and very few get those.

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Are you speaking of actual males in the first two paragraphs? Cuz if you are, then your friend acting coy is pulling your leg, or yanking your chain, or otherwise being misleading.

It's very easy for males to pee when sitting on the toilet. No difficult maneuvers are needed to redirect the penis in such a situation since most of the time the penis is not erect; it's normally flaccid and just hanging/dangling between the legs. Which is why when guys stand to pee they have to hold their dicks with hands to prop 'em up and point the spray in the right direction.

A large number of men prefer to pee sitting down, and routinely do so when at home. In some countries, around half of married men customarily pee sitting down.

https://www.menshealth.com/health/a26322744/is-it-normal-for-men-to-pee-sitting-down/ https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bnpgp8/how-pissing-siting-down-become-a-thing-for-men-456

Little boys actually have to be taught to pee standing up. They do not automatically know how to do it, nor are they naturally good at directing the spray into the bowl. Which is why little floating targets are commonly used for them to aim at during toilet training. Even so, most males who have been toilet trained are not naturally gifted at it - which is why most toilets that males use tend to use get pee all over the seat and on the floor around the toilet bowl. https://mumcentral.com.au/how-to-teach-boys-to-pee-standing-up/

If you were speaking about TIFs who have had metoidioplasty or phalloplasty in which the female urethra has been successfully reconfigured, then I apologize for misunderstanding. Just goes to show why using pronouns meant to denote sex to refer instead to gender identity leads to a lot of confusion.

[–]WrongToy[S] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I was speaking of actual males. The male who mentioned this in front of SO was raised clearly to stand up and so was SO. I grew up with sisters only and my ex never even brought this up as a poss so I had to ask SO if it was even possible. It is, apparently, but to him it'd be like asking me to stand up and pee. Which is again possible, but would mean a messier process, probably because I've been doing it one way (sitting down) for over a half century, same as them.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for answering my question. That is so interesting! I grew up with brothers, participated in toilet training of little boys as a big sister, baby sitter in my youth and as a mom/aunt/nursery school parent volunteer assistant in my adulthood, and I attended a uni that at the time was nearly all male - and this is the first time I've heard that some males have been taught NEVER to pee sitting down - and to think doing so is physically difficult or impossible.

So when these guys need to pee and poop at the same time, they carry out two entirely separate operations in two different positions - rather than accomplish both whilst sitting on the can? What do they do when there's an electrical blackout or other situation that requires them to pee in the dark? What happens when they get elderly and have very poor eyesight and balance, or have a disease like Parkinson's that causes tremors or MS that causes loss of muscle and control? Or when they're in hospital and confined to bed, but aren't so sick that they need a catheter? (Rhetorical questions, so I don't expect an answer, LOL.)

I feel sorry that these fellas don't realize they can pee sitting down - whether on a toilet or on another kind of seat. Fact is, in long-distance trips in cars, trucks, planes, tanks, troop transporters etc, it's always been customary for males to pee into vessels whilst remaining sitting down. When I had young sons, they and their male friends all did this whilst remaining sitting in the back seats of cars - that was often much easier than making a pit stop, especially for kids who couldn't hold it. All the pilots I know (including dad in WW2) always did this, and it was no big deal.

Companies that cater to the aviation industry, the military, long-distance race car drivers and people who car pool long have manufactured portable devices made expressly for this purpose - you can find 'em easily online including on Amazon. These sorts of devices are routinely used by male wheelchair users, and in nursing homes and hospitals as well.

Also, back in the day before indoor plumbing when "chamber pots" were used for "night water," there's no way that men would stand up to pee in them in the middle of the night darkness. Especially when it was cold. Instead, they'd bring the vessels close to their dicks so they could pee into them sitting or still lying down.

In many parts of the world, it's more customary for males to pee sitting down than standing, in part because it's been proven to be far more hygienic: https://www.pri.org/stories/2012-09-05/peeing-while-standing-how-medieval-you

Also, in the West, many urologists and men's health publications recommend that males over 50 - the age at which most begin to develop prostate issues - pee sitting down to help them fully empty their bladders. And because worsening aim goes hand in hand - or rather, penis in hand - with the reduced stream volume and velocity that occurs with age. For many elderly men, even those who have no problem standing or seeing, peeing standing up is impossible because their urine come out more in a weak spray or dribble than a strong steady torrent or gush.

[–]our_team_is_winning 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So why do TIF want to use the urinals? Sounds impossible for them. Or they use the ahem, poop stall? (Not directing these questions at you, by the way, just wondering out loud.) Reminds me of that post (or cross post) on here a while ago about a TIF who went to a gay male sex party and didn't understand why the men were unhappy about a girl being there.

[–]chrysthefeminist 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Teenage boys have the right to use the toilet without a female being in there. Teenage girls have the right to use the toilet without a young Yaniv type being in there.

Teenage girls have the right to use the toilet without any male being in there, not just a "young Yaniv type."

[–]jet199 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

She's going to be really pissed when she realises boys don't actually do all male song and dance routines in the bathrooms like she imagines.

[–]TurtleFuzz 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

As a parent of young girls, this is what I fear for when they eventually start school. Since when did the needs of the few supercede the needs of the many?

When young girls are forced to use the same bathroom as boys, there are going to be problems. Using the toilet makes you incredibly vulnerable, male or female. Every child has the right to be safe when they're going to the bathroom. And the best way to do that is separate bathrooms.

Maybe the solution is to designate one of the teacher's single-toilet bathrooms to be for trans kids? Then no one has to be uncomfortable.

[–]Huffleterf 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Schools have tried that with bathrooms and locker rooms and have been sued for discrimination. One teenage boy won quite a bit of money.

[–]TurtleFuzz 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, that's unfortunate :/

[–]YoutiaoLover 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm wondering, would all-girls school still be a better choice for girls nowadays? Or are TIMs colonizing those schools too like they do co-eds?

[–]TurtleFuzz 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's a good point. It might be that religious schools are the only ones not buying into the insanity. Which sounds weird to say haha. But it's definitely something to think about!

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

For child safeguarding, instilling & respecting healthy boundaries and a number of other reasons, schools routinely keep staff/adult facilities separate from those used by the students - and members of the two groups are not allowed to use each other's loos.

Teachers' loos are usually in or adjacent to areas of the school meant for teachers/staff only, and where teachers/staff seek respite from the pupils, so I doubt teachers and their unions would agree to turning one of their single occupancy toilets into a trans students' toilet. Cuz it would mean students constantly traipsing in and out of the teachers/staff's space. The lawyers for teachers, and for the schools, as well as safeguarding experts and parents would also point out that such a plan would make the trans students more vulnerable to potential sex abuse, voyeurism and other untoward behavior from adults - and teachers/staff at greater risk of being suspected or accused of such.

In schools attended by pupils of a wide range of ages, such as K-8 or K-12, it's usually the case that loos are further segregated by grades - or lower, middle and upper school -as well. This is so the small kids won't be intimidated by the larger, older kids; so the older kids don't end up having to be helpers/caretakers of little kids in the loos; so as to protect the privacy of older kids, especially girls dealing with menstruation; and because the toilets and sink in the little kids loos are lower height, and thus not suitable for larger, older pupils. Also, pre-K, K and sometimes first grade classes often have their own bathrooms right next to the classroom that can only be used by pupils from that classroom.

[–]TurtleFuzz 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Good point, I forgot about the teacher's unions and protections from adults. Thanks for bringing that up.

Just an anecdote, but my elementary school may have been messed up. Because I know that while the kindergarten class had a separate, attached bathroom, the rest of the students could use any other bathroom. You could walk to the other end of the school and use the toilets there, because you weren't escorted. I often did this because I didn't want to run into any of my friends or classmates on the shitter haha.

We also had a single toilet bathroom adjacent to the nurse's office that anyone could use, as the door was unlocked (when not in use) and the door was on the main hallway. I don't remember if it was only for students or obly for teachers, but I do remember seeing adults use it as well as children.

You use the word "loo", are you British? I wonder if school rules are different or more strict there than in the US.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Glad you appreciate the additional perspective. These are complex topics, and I only know about the restroom policies in schools from having raised (now grown) kids myself. I was always impressed - and sometimes surprised - by the many additional views that I'd not seen or considered before but which experienced educators brought to my attention.

In the USA, the school bathroom situation is made more complex and difficult to make sense of - and protest - because policies vary from state to state, district to district, school to school...

In my experience, the situation you describe re the nurse's office is customary in the US. Ideally, there should be a single-occupant loo attached to the nurse's office that the school nurse controls access to but which is for students only - and another entirely separate SO loo off the entry/reception area that can be used by anyone. However, the open-to-all SO loo should only be accessible by a key or code rather than being open to anyone at will. Because single occupancy loos in schools that are unlocked and open to all comers make it too easy for an adult individual, a nefarious student, or a group of students to force and lock someone into such loos for malevolent purposes.

I'm in the US, but spend - or used to spend - a lot of time in the UK, and regularly read the UK press. Also, I spend a fair amount of my online time on Mumsnet, which IMO is the best source of info and discussion about these issues. I use "loo" because it's easier to type than "bathroom" or "restroom" and is just as or even more accurate. I mean, we in the US are not usually using school and public "bathrooms" and "restrooms" for bathing or resting.

The rules and regs re school loos in the UK are different and far more strict than in the USA. The UK also has the 2010 Equality Act, which gives all girls and women in the UK the right to female-only spaces and services. And the UK has developed a robust system and philosophy of safeguarding. I'd recommend looking into Safe Schools Alliance UK https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

Nice chatting with you!

[–]Nohope 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I understand that the "trans" can't use teachers' restrooms, but "trans boys" shouldn't use boy restrooms/bathrooms/lockers and "trans girls" shouldn't use girl bathrooms/restrooms/lockers. So we should have a third and fourth place separate from everything else and call the third and fourth place the "trans" restrooms/bathrooms/lockers. What do you think