If "gender" ("femininity" and "masculinity") is biological because of sexual dimorphism, then why are we fighting against "gender" when things like having muscles are biologically "masculine" and things like being short are biologically "feminine"?

submitted by Nohope from (self.GenderCritical)

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[–]marmalade 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

This means boys that have high pitched voices and are not tall either are less male or look like girls because they have biologically "feminine" qualities and this means girls that are a bit taller than other girls, are not nurturing, are not beautiful, etc, either are less female or look like boys because they have biologically "masculine" qualities.

If "gender" ("femininity" and "masculinity") is biological then why are we fighting against "gender"?

¿¿¿¿¿????? Sexual dimorphism isn't gender and you make no sense. Please to the exit, thank you!

[–]Nohope[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I mean according to "gender" essentialism, "gender" which is "femininity" or "masculinity" is sexual dimorphism, "gender" essentialists believe "gender" as in "femininity" or "masculinity" is innate, and that e.g. a man with a high pitched voice or a short height is "feminine" for having biologically "feminine" qualities. But if "gender" is not biological, then it means "gender" is not sexual dimorphism and is just a social construct, there then is no such a thing as "femininity" or "masculinity" and one can not be "feminine" or "masculine"

Now we need to find a way to debunk "gender" essentialism, does anyone know how to do that?

[–]vitunrotta 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Just be who ever the hell you feel like being and stop using words like "feminine" and "masculine" like they are some absolute definitions of people. Jesus on a bicycle, I am a biological woman, I paint my nails, I speak on a lower pitch, I can burp the entire alphabet, I swear like a pirate, I wear dresses, I like high heels, and I also love sneakers, I love ice hockey... Oh lord, what am I?! (Hint: still just a normal, regular, everyday fucking woman.)

Stop trying to use this nonsense vocabulary to mix things up. Biology is one thing. I am a WOMAN. I can show traits of either so-called "feminine" or "masculine" behaviors. Those mean nothing. Bottom line is - just be the person you want to be and stop adding these completely useless, extremely sexist ideas of "femininity" and "masculinity" in order to try to explain something that doesn't need to be explained in the first place, FFS.

[–]tuesday 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

thank you for saying that. my comment in her other thread was a lot more... graphic. :D

cos whoops i grew up on a farm, and er... apparently i have butchered animals in a very womanly oh i meant feminine way.

The problem with the term feminine is that it is referring back on itself without ever defining anything, which is incredibly circular. ALL the dictionaries do that for that word. Who is feminine? Women. And not just any woman but a good woman cos feminine men are baaaaad. So what is it that good women do in a feminine way? Oh gosh be all cute and cuddly and pornified. Who benefits when women act like that? men. The REAL definition of "feminine" is just "anything that women do which men like".

It's a dumb male gaze category type word, stop using it.

[–]Nohope[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I didn't get to see your comment in my other thread before you deleted it :((, is it okay if you could send it again? I'm just curious even if it's graphic and wish the comment was not deleted, or send the comment you removed via private messages on saidit pretty please? If you're more comfortable with private messages, thank you my friend <3

[–]vitunrotta 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Baiting much? :D Who are you really, some aggravated Reddit TiM moderator that cannot comprehend WOMEN may want to talk amongst themselves about things that apply to them... because of their biology?

Good luck. We are not the haters. Your little cutesy heart signs here and there won't fool anyone, either. Back to your own sunshiny rainbow world, shoo shoo ◕ᴗ◕

[–]Nohope[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Eh, I'm a female, you're talking to a human with a vagina here. I'm saying the point of GC is we have a biological sex and we can talk about the biological sex. But that we are not supposed to follow the roles that come with the biological sex, just because girls/women have vaginas, it doesn't mean girls/women should be short, have no muscles, have "smooth" skin, have less body hair, like pink, wear dresses, wear make up, be nurturing, have big boobs, etc.

And same for men, doesn't mean males/men should be aggressive, tall, etc.

But when you say a man that is short, has high pitched voice, etc is "feminine" you are saying the qualities he has are the qualities women have which means you're saying women should be a certain way like be shorter than men and if a man is short, etc he's being like a woman which is what TRAs argue

[–]vitunrotta 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So you do not understand the very idea of gender critical at all, then. Glad you managed to at least admit that. Please, go back to some site that speaks in a way a 13-year-old is doing "critical thinking."

I'm outta this "conversation," good luck with your next endeavour of trying to bait someone to get them talk badly about you. :) All the best, pusipusi.

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It was just along the lines of... I grew up on a farm and we grew and butchered our own food. I am no stranger to the practical realities of putting meat on the table. Which can sound pretty graphic to people who never had that experience. So when people trot out that "I am a woman therefore everything I do is performed in a womanly way" I think... wow, when i cut the head off that baby lamb, and when I changed the tractor tire, and mucked out the chicken coop, and did all those other chores which must be done when you live on a farm, I did them in the exact same way that my DAD taught me.

who knew he was performing femininity when he killed and dressed all those deer! :P All kidding aside, you already know that killing and gutting deer is not what is meant by "performing femininity". Femininity is just an idea in a man's head when he thinks about the submissive qualities he prefers to see in women.

And then to make matters worse, women come along and normalize that word, to ourselves and each other, as if it is ever a neutral act to contribute to our own oppression. It's not a neutral word. It's a sexist word, and it's purpose is to normalize the male gaze. (Same thing for "masculinity". It's just an idea in a man's head regarding acceptable male behavior.)

Anyhoo, your other post on the subject received more positive responses and I had noticed (at least when I first read it) that really nobody had twigged the problems with your question. To have no one more experienced gently explain the problems with that post, was disheartening. This one, you're still conflating bio sex with [an incorrect definition of gender] but at least some people are explaining the problems.

Extremely sorry if my comment comes across as patronizing!! Discussions surrounding bio sex/gender/transgenderism can get confusing very quickly, and entire meanings can be not just altered but completely lost and contradictory if someone isn't looking specifically for those traps. We've all been there, is what i'm trying to say.

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You didn't ask and so this is yet another potentially patronizing comment... but! :D I offer it in an attempt for these convos to be less confusing. Whenever you see anybody use the word "gender" in a sentence, mentally replace that word with either "biological sex" or "sexist stereotypes", whichever one seems more appropriate/what the speaker was trying to convey.

As soon as you do that, you will notice that transactivists (and others new to gc) will constantly contradict themselves. Oftentimes in the same sentence. The difference, once this conflation is pointed out, is that gc people stop doing it. :P Transactivists, otoh, never stop cos the ensuring confusion IS their goal.

[–]ladyreason 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ok so imagine society has two buckets.

One bucket is labeled "men" and the other "women".

So into one bucket they put pregnancy and uterus and such because obvious, and into the other they put testicles and so forth, and everything is fine because yeah biology empirically exists right? Cool.

Except then men are like "we're more strong so we're going to put strength and tallness in our bucket and you can have emotional stuff in yours" and women are all "ok some of us are pretty tall and there are emotional men too but I guess maybe..."

But the men, who aren't actually listening at this point, are all "and we want to be the hunters and have jobs and run everything, and we'll toss the mopping and the laundry and watching kids in the women bucket..." and the women are all "wait a sec..." and then the men toss high heels in their bucket but after a while realize they suck so they pull them out and put them in the women's bucket, and they swap the pastel pink and blue between the buckets a few times arbitrarily, and women are all "hey this isn't fair we didn't agree to not be allowed to be doctors or scientists and some of us would be great at it and not all of us like romance novels..." but the men really really aren't listening at this point.

And after a while everything in the entire world has been sorted into these buckets based mostly on what the men in power want to have in the men's bucket.

After a long time, some really angry women get fed up and manage to pry a few items like "voting" and "wearing pants" out of the men's bucket. And they start pointing out that the only thing that BELONGS in the buckets are the basic physiological differences that are immutable. Everything else should be available regardless of what sex you are. And the men, who are used to having all the best stuff in their bucket, get mad that women would want stuff in THEIR bucket because it's been THEIRS like seriously forever so men obviously just automatically should ALWAYS HAVE things like higher salaries and actual testing for potential medical treatments and not being expected to cook dinner.

The problem isn't sex differences based in physiology.

The problem is that the patriarchy decided that things that have nothing to do with biological sex, needed to be parceled out by biological sex. And men got pretty much all the good stuff.

[–]tuesday 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

whoa. best comment ever. thank you!

[–]Realwoman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're conflating sex differences with gender. Also, sex differences exist on a spectrum, they don't determine sex. Gametes do. Men are taller than women on average but many women are taller than many men and that's normal. Doesn't mean that tall women have a different gender from average heightened women.

Also, while a feminine face is more likely to be considered beautiful and a masculine face is more likely to be considered handsome, facial attractiveness has more to do with one's facial features and bone structure that's independent of hormones but depends on other genes.

[–]vitunrotta 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Who the hell says "gender" is being fought against? Wot. Genders are the ROLES which we are supposed to play because of our BIOLOGICAL sex. To be honest your text is a big ramble, so whatever.

You seem like a a very confused person or a troll. If the first, please educate yourself: if the latter, please leave.

[–]Nohope[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The point of GC is to abolish "gender" ("femininity" or "masculinity") or the "gender roles" you call it because that's what made girls that are tough and hate pink/make-up/dresses think they must be boys since they are different from other girls and don't conform to the "roles" most girls have based on their sex so they take hormones and get surgeries, that's just how "trans" was made. The point of GC is we have a biological sex but nobody is supposed to play any roles that people think are there because of our biological sex

If anything, I think most GCs disagree with the point of GC, they are for "gender"/"gender roles" and they want girls/women and boys/males to play the roles that are there because of their "biological sex" so they see "gender non-conforming" people as failures and "defects" like transmedicalists because they're not doing what you expect them to do

It's just shocking that most GCs are "gender" essentialists like transmedicalists are

[–]PassionateIntensity 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

they are for "gender"/"gender roles" and they want girls/women and boys/males to play the roles that are there because of their "biological sex" so they see "gender non-conforming" people as failures and "defects" like transmedicalists because they're not doing what you expect them to do

Total fucking nonsense. MOST OF US ARE GNC.

[–]vitunrotta 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Dude, your username pretty much encapsulates the point of this so called conversation, so I'll just leave you ramble on wherever else you want... But I'm done trying to talk sense to a fucking flip-flop.

All the best and do get help, your thinking is not nearly as sane as you may think it is.

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The point of GC is to abolish sexist stereotypes.

Everything you said after that falls down the rabbit hole of confusion because when you wrote that, you were still assuming that the word "gender" could mean "sexist stereotypes" AND "biological sex" at the same time. But those two terms directly contradict each other. Which is why most of us who have participated in these discussions for years, tend to never use the word "gender" by itself.

If anything, I think most GCs disagree with the point of GC, they are for "gender"/"gender roles" and they want girls/women and boys/males to play the roles that are there because of their "biological sex" so they see "gender non-conforming" people as failures and "defects" like transmedicalists because they're not doing what you expect them to do

It's just shocking that most GCs are "gender" essentialists like transmedicalists are

Try as I might, no matter how badly I superimpose contradictory terms on top of each other, I still can't figure out how anybody could arrive at that conclusion. Perhaps you could help explain to me? I would love to understand how someone new to GC reasoned through that. What gives you the impression that GC are in favor of sexist gender stereotypes?

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

What is this crap about women not having muscles? We have all the muscles males have. What's more, female humans have amazingly strong muscular organs that males don't have - uterus, cervix and vagina. These female organs are responsible for perpetuating the human race. Every person to have ever lived on planet earth came from a female body.

[–]tuesday 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

oh dear. I shouldn't have deleted my comment in your other thread. it's a sexist word, used by sexist pigs who are determined to make everything anyone ever does all about gender stereotypes.

[–]Nohope[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hi, I didn't get to see your comment in my other thread before you deleted it :((, is it okay if you could send it again? I'm just curious even if it's graphic and wish the comment was not deleted, or send the comment you removed via private messages on saidit pretty please? If you're more comfortable with private messages, thank you my friend <3