Men's Health magazine. How to choke a woman. I don't want to live on this planet.

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[–]Doobeedoo661 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (35 children)

I’ve not read the article, but I have to ask, who are these girls and women partaking in strangulation for the kicks? How did they become so complicit in degradation? Sure you can blame porn, mainstream media, the patriarchy but come on.

There needs to be an element of responsibility for one’s own welfare. I’m not convinced that this is an act perpetrated solely by evil males upon unwilling women, not for it to have become mainstream.

I really don’t know what to say except, this may be a way to weed out the weak within our society. If you’re stupid enough to risk your life with a partner who’s into strangulation and you’re injured, that’s just life and the rest of us who practise caution in the bedroom will survive this phase.

As for the men who practise this form of kink, I bet they’re exhibiting several behaviours which elicit red flags that are likely ignored by women. Women and girls need to wisen up cause men are pretty simple to work out.

[–]worried19 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

I really feel a lot of anger towards those women. They're hurting all of us, and their desire to celebrate acts of male violence and male domination is damaging the next generation of girls.

[–]vitunrotta 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

In all fairness, I do feel irritated at these women as well - however, if you take one quick look at some of the most popular sites for teens/young adult (women), you'll see this kind of sex is now super in. In other words: it is being normalized violently and young people are not really famous for understanding which trends are fun and harmless and which are... well, not.

I am well past my thirties and even I felt a weird tinge of "guilt" (for the lack of a better word) because I did not feel I had any kinks or semi/full-on violent sexual desires. The lovely word "vanilla" is spread around the internet, referring to people (=women) who are not into rough acts in sex, or who simply don't have any kinks. And it's terrible to be vanilla! Nobody wants to be the LAME girl, come on now. So either you admit to yourself and everyone else that you're a lameass timid loser OR you start "liking" these kinds of kinks.

Back in my day (about 20 years ago) the absolute biggest thing was to get rid of your virginity ASAP and it felt like a horrible, terrible thing to still be a virgin e.g. at the ripe old age of 17. I'm sure this phenomenon still exists as well, but now you're supposed to exorcise that nasty evil spirit called "virginity" while being tied into a bed frame and being choked and slapped and spat on. Charming.

Please, let's not hate on these young women who have been brainwashed into thinking this is some kind of new normal (and that past generations have just conveniently noped the fuck out of someone CHOKING you while you're having sex because they were such prudes.) If you start reading about spitting, slapping and choking at a very young age, chances are you WILL start thinking it's normal and even though your mind & body tells you that you do NOT enjoy it, you feel like you have to - otherwise something is wrong with you.

I would point the massive blaming finger at publications that keep spouting this kind of bullshit without ever considering what these kinds of articles do to (especially) young people. And mind you, it is definitely NOT just Men's Health Magazine that does this. "Sex friendly" (=kink loving) articles are churned out en masse by a ton of different sites, some specifically made for women.

[–]yousaythosethings 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you. This is absolutely being normalized for young girls just starting to explore their sexuality who are getting these hostile messages from every direction and especially publications like this. I would not blame those girls one bit.

[–]vitunrotta 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Exactly. Women already get blamed for pretty much everything. I'm not saying they are some innocent Vestal virgins but it's unfair to make it look like it's all women's fault. Very original indeed...!

There's a LOT of money to be made in new fads and trends - usually following that money trail will give you a far better idea of who is/are guilty of this pushing of super-pornified, violent sex as the new norm. My very innocent guess is: it's not young, half-clueless women with max. 500 bucks on their bank accounts. Just sayin'.

Edit: grammar

[–]our_team_is_winning[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Back in my day (about 20 years ago) the absolute biggest thing was to get rid of your virginity

Yep! Like it was something bad and shameful, and at the same time, men claim they want to marry virgins! Everything you said was spot on. Round of applause! I saw another article in SELF about getting started in SLAPPING. Like "Slapping 101 for newbies" or such -- Was there once a connection between LOVE and sex? Or at least PLEASURE and sex? Anyone new to this planet would never know it.

[–]vitunrotta 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

they want to marry virgins

Ugh, this. I happened to read a book about the infamous whore/Madonna phenomenon when I was younger (it was in Finnish and I can't for the life of me recall its name) and it was quite the eye-opener. (Not enough for me to still think being a virgin was a curse though, bahah!)

But indeed - it's like today's job adverts. "Internship for beginners - you only need 20+ years of experience in the same field prior to applying. But it's for beginners only! Old hags need not apply!" It's almost like... there's a bit of a logical fallacy there but I can't think what it may be! Hmm... /s

[–]Doobeedoo661 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I know you didn’t reply to my post but you raise interesting points, namely peer pressure, brainwashing etc. My issue is, if as a society we keep on blaming all the outward temptations and influences, doesn’t this play right into the notion of infantilisation of women? We must protect and guide women as they’re incapable of making good choices for themselves, that’s my interpretation when we blame everything but individual responsibility.

I’m simply not buying spitting, choking and slapping has become normalised. I’m more inclined to believe these girls and boys have ferocious personality flaws that have been nurtured by neglect and likely substance abuse. It should be instinctive that you fight your way out of these kinds of abuse - not negotiate your limits with your partner. I can’t think of any other species that would surrender to this sort of treatment outside of a cage or laboratory.

We as women have access to so many positive role models now days, willingly subjecting yourself to strangulation, slapping and so on is a personal choice. Let’s not call these women victims, there’s real victims out there that truly have no choice.

[–]slushpilot 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It's one thing to see porn & articles like this as an adult once you've had the chance to grow up and experience some normal relationships. You can roll your eyes and brush it off easily.

It's another thing to see it at 13 or whatever, and see it everywhere before you can put any of it in context with your own experience & realize that it's not actually normal.

You can call it "infantilizing" and talk about personal responsibility, but I'd bet the worst impact of this stuff is actually on children who are just figuring things out. Even if they're not abused or have other problems, girls can be lonely and say they enjoy the things they believe are expected of them.

[–]Doobeedoo661 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I anticipated the prepubescent aspect. This is where parents should step up to the plate, where a lot of the blame should probably be laid. I guess it’s survival of the fittest in the end, cause I can’t see the world changing fast enough to ensure everyone’s safety in which porn is no longer readily available. Everyone gets lonely, but to seek out companionship with abusers is a whole level of defective behaviour way beyond my pay grade.

[–]our_team_is_winning[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Everyone gets lonely, but to seek out companionship with abusers is a whole level of defective behaviour way beyond my pay grade.

Playing devil's advocate: Are there women who make these weird choices? Yes. In the mid 80s I had a male friend who told me about a girl who tried to become his girlfriend. Her sales pitch was to tell him she'd had past men beat her and abuse her, claiming she could take anything he could dish out. He was NOT an abuser and was very disturbed by her offer. He told me about it because it freaked him out. But what had happened to that girl in the past to make her like that? I'd guess a large % of adult women had something bad happen in the past so that now they seek out abuse because it's familiar.

[–]Doobeedoo661 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Speechless.

[–]OrneryStruggle 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

It's disgusting that you're saying something like this on a feminist forum. Preteens very rarely knowingly "seek out" companionship with abusers. You don't know someone is an abuser by looking at them. Jesus what a disgusting thing to say.

[–]crazyangryfemale 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you!! There’s nothing for someone like this on a feminist-based forum.

[–]OrneryStruggle 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Go ahead and blame all the people who for decades have been eating breads, cereals and low fat yogurts for now having weight and hormone issues because the government, scientists, and society at large lied about what healthy food was for half a century.

Or maybe don't and realize that people don't just come out of the womb knowing everything there is to know and equipped with the tools to stand up to society, culture, and larger/stronger human beings (aka the boys/men choking these girls/women, who might get hurt even worse if they fight back).

[–]vitunrotta 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’m simply not buying spitting, choking and slapping has become normalised

There are numerous pretty alarming things you said but I'm just going to reply to this one (for my sanity's sake). Go on any porn site. Any. And there are plenty. Browse the main pages for some time and then tell me what you have witnessed. You can also visit sites meant for young adults and women that talk about "rough" sex, slapping, choking etc. as if it's something totally normal now - something we all immensely enjoy. Also, a good book for you to read regarding this subject would be Gail Dines' Pornland. That should be a proper eye-opener, if the above mentioned suggestions fail.

Finally, I must say that I certainly am not for "infantilizing" women - actually far from it. In this context I spoke of young(er) women who are still trying to figure out what sex and sexuality is (at large and for them personally). I 100% believe it's fair to say it is not them we should blame on this - rather, the multi-billion business that pushes violent porn (which many young people falsely conflate with sex) at an alarming speed on the screens of kids that have barely reached their pre-teens. And come on - blaming parents! Please. Even the most alert parent will have zero actual idea what their darling little cherubs are up to on the internet. The whole notion of this being because parents have failed to "police" their kids is quite laughable, to be honest.

Others have pointed out several other things so I won't get to them, as I think we simply have an extremely differing opinion on this and bickering about it won't do anything but waste both our times.

[–]Doobeedoo661 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I appreciate you taking the time to share your views, especially if your sanity is at stake. I won’t take you up on the porn sites but the book does sound interesting, thanks for the heads up.

[–]vitunrotta 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No problem. It is quite a disturbing read though, I must say. I tend to think there are very few things I will find genuinely unsettling (on this day and age...) but that was one of them. Had to read it in short segments, heh.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That's fair. I do put much more blame on adult women who should know better, who grew up in an era before this violence was normalized and who are trying to pass it down to the next generation. Obviously, I don't blame a 13 year old who has never known anything different. You'd think her parents would have taught her correctly, but maybe some parents don't talk much about this stuff. And if kids see something in porn, how are they to know anything about it? I'm still shocked young girls aren't massively disgusted and scared, but perhaps some of them are so damaged from other aspects of growing up female that they simply aren't able to correctly assess what's going on.

[–]Asplenium 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Plenty of them probably are disgusted and scared. But if all they see online/in tv etc says that this is positive, and all the other equally insecure teenage girls are also playing along with it to fit in, then they're probably just going to suppress those feelings and end up with a ton of (modern) internalized misogyny. I think I first saw hardcore porn aged 13 and it didn't make me want to go out and campaign for women's rights, it just contributed to me really wishing that I could be a man instead.

[–]PurpleAmathea 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Why are you blaming adult women and not adult men? You think it's OK that men are passing down that it's okay to choke and slap and spit on your partner?

You have a very exaggerated idea of how easy it is for a woman, naked underneath a man, when the man suddenly starts choking her, to escape. It is easier for the woman to go along with it,, easier for her to rewrite what happened as her consenting.

What the fuck was wrong with the man though???????

We should empower women to say no but its far, far more urgent for the men to stop. The women need to be taught self defense (which is not always effective). But the men need to be taught not to be such fucking sickos. Its totally different scale of problems.

[–]worried19 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't blame the women who are victimized by men unexpectedly. I blame the women who ask men to hit or choke them. Surely you've seen "choke me out, daddy" memes coming from adult women.

[–]MonstrousRegiment 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I feel it too. Also towards pornified women in general. But I try to remind myself that they've been trained into it.

[–]worried19 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't think that excuses all of them. Not all women have been the victims of trauma and abuse. Every girl who grew up in a decent home grew up knowing that men are not supposed to hit women.

[–]OrneryStruggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Well, actually having a man choke you without asking literally is trauma and abuse. So yes, all the women who have experienced this have been the victims of it.

[–]worried19 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Of course, but I meant the ones who do ask men to choke them.

[–]ThisReality 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I’ve not read the article, but I have to ask, who are these girls and women partaking in strangulation for the kicks? How did they become so complicit in degradation? Sure you can blame porn, mainstream media, the patriarchy but come on.

My experience is, a lot of them do it because it gets them attention among kink circles and makes them popular, and it gives them bragging rights to their friends. One comment that sticks out in my mind is a young woman who said she hated the masochism she participated in, but she did it because she loved the looks on her friends' faces when she told them what she was into. It's "not like other girls" and a need for acceptance, taken to a toxic extreme.

[–]Doobeedoo661 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess I underestimated how malignant low self esteem is. That was alarming to read.

[–]beholdyourheart 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's low self-esteem, and often mental health issues. Young women who are depressed, or have experienced trauma, or are suffering from some other kind of mental disorder - they want to hurt themselves and can channel that towards the now socially acceptable method of having their partner get off on hurting them. Self-harm is frowned upon, people will take notice if you have scars, but if it's a man doing the cutting (revoltingly called knifeplay, off-topic but I hate all the cutesy names given to this shit), then it's totally fine according to society right now. Anecdotally, at the time my self-esteem was lowest, when I really hated myself, that was when I was most interested in violent kink. All my fantasies revolved around getting hurt because I felt like I didn't deserve anything more. Once I started to deal with those problems, I began to lose interest and was able to develop more healthy sexual habits. If I'd had a partner who encouraged that kind of violence though, maybe I'd still be stuck in that mindset today.

Let's not blame the women here please, let's blame the men who encourage this sort of shit. At the end of the day when it comes to kink critique, my focus is not on the woman who wants to be hurt but on the man who is aroused by hurting women. One is dangerous to others, the other is only dangerous to herself. I really hate the idea that young women with mental health issues being hurt or even killed as a result of male sexual violence are simply 'the weak being weeded out', and I don't feel like that's conducive to proper feminist critique of kink culture at all. Like yeah, it's not healthy to want to be hurt and it doesn't make sense from a logical standpoint, but issues like that aren't logical. We can't stop women from making harmful choices, but we can do our best to educate them on the real harms of things like kink and porn without blaming them or calling them stupid for getting involved in the first place - that'll just drive them away.

[–]our_team_is_winning[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

f it's a man doing the cutting (revoltingly called knifeplay

Arrrggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Arggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Arrgghhhhhhhhhhhhh. Ever since I learned about "crush" videos (if you don't know, don't look. It's animal torture murder) I thought we'd bottomed out and had nowhere to go but up. Nope. Just keep bumping along the bottom.

[–]Doobeedoo661 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s interesting how abuse can manifest itself. Thank you for taking the time to explain something that impacted your life so intimately in order to explain the possible psychology at play. I may come off a little too harsh since my abuse manifests externally and I tend to victimise and manipulate where I perceive weakness - if I’m not mindful.

[–]OrneryStruggle 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

A lot of the time they're not really 'partaking in strangulation for the kicks.' When I was a teenager a guy kissed me for a few minutes/seconds maybe and immediately choked me without warning after starting to kiss. I wasn't exactly able to say anything about it because I was shocked and also being choked, obviously. I didn't continue seeing that guy after that, but he did it so casually I thought I was the weird one for not feeling OK with it. I told a female friend afterwards and she laughed and acted like it was normal. It took a few months to admit to myself that it wasn't, and by that time I was no longer in contact with the man in question.

I don't think it makes sense to blame the teenage girls who are being made to believe this is as normal as hugging or kissing.

[–]Doobeedoo661 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A guy once forced me onto the dance floor against my will, I detached one of his testicles - my friends still laugh about it. I’m glad you’re okay.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not a funny joke.

[–]crazyangryfemale 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sure, let’s blame women for not being smart enough. That’s productive. You’re giving a lot of room for men yet none for women. Men who commit these violent, misogynistic acts will likely be skilled liars & narcissists. They would have prowled & successfully convinced dozens of women that they’re safe when they’re not. Abusive men as well change their female partner’s brain with the abuse. Even without a background of abuse/trauma, any woman in the world can imbibe the messages we’re directly & purposefully fed about needing to be submissive & able to withstand torture. Women are shown through porn & common media that the sexiest woman can still smile & perform while being brutalized (though common media wont see BDSM as brutalization, it’s perspective). While I’m in favor of women arming themselves (as I don’t believe men will change) let’s not slide back in progress so far that we call women ignorant. I’m sure many women felt something. But we aren’t raised to trust that. As well, many women don’t know what these red flags look like. I’ve had so many conversations with women about men, how you can feel them out, even when they have a personality disorder that would complicate it; and many times all they need is for someone to teach them the language. I remember one women who had been abused for twenty years turning to look at me & saying “I’d never thought about it like that.” Don’t underestimate how deceit, manipulation, violence, & abuse can affect women’s ability to process threatening behavior.

You’re calling these women weak for being beaten to death & not having the mystical power of foresight to see it coming. Or are other women weak for being vulnerable & traumatized, deserving in their pursuit of bdsm? Mind clarifying that? We’re all accountable for our actions, but when we’re looking at a pattern of behavior in females who often share similar backgrounds or experiences, it’s shallow & ridiculous to pass it off as their weakness, ignorance, or stupidity.