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GC is about protecting BOTH women and trans!

submitted by Overdrive from self.GenderCritical

I am standing up against those who would do people harm. Those who would take advantage of laws and systems that benefit only them. Those with sexual fantasies and mental health disorders. Those who want to erase others. This isn't just about women, it's about all the trans women and men out there who just want to live their lives in peace.

Unfortunately those individuals are also drowned out, labeled, and censored. We absolutely share solidarity with them all. It's those individuals we should fight to hear and to learn from. The TRA's and the woke mob are so disingenuous it is frightening to all of us.

GC has always been supportive of any skeptical regardless of their walks of life. We are not against trans people, nor will we ever be. We are concerned about policy, issues, safety. I just wanted to put that out there. What a shame we are shut down in so many places. Because it only makes it harder for us to hear the rationale of the other side.

I stand up for the rights of trans women, always. However I also believe that women's sex based rights must be protected at all costs, and I also stand up for those. I wish more would understand that to be GC doesn't make you transphobic. We're not pinholing the issues, rather we realize just how complex they are. And we are shut down for it.

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[–]WrongToy[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

This sub is not about protecting women and trans.

It is about protecting females. That is our interest here.

We don't hate TIMs, or men, but protecting them is outside the scope.

Locked.

[–]RoundFork 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TW issues mostly align with men’s issues, so they should be the ones who solve it. Transmen however ARE our concern.

[–]Marsupial 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't stand up for them at all. They should have the same basic rights as everybody else, no more, no less. I am not a trans ally. I am an ally of women and that is incompatible with being an ally with TiMs because of how the TiMs view women and femininity.
Feminism is for women. Feminism has no obligation to be inclusive of everything and everyone, be it transpeople or fatpositivity or whatthefucknot. Women's spaces are for women. We do not need to accomodate men in either of those things. Your entire post is just more patriarchal bullshit of trying to cater to men's feelings despite the harm it does to women. It's just one more example of men's feeling being valued more and more coddled about than the lived experience and safety of women.

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is probably the harshest post I'll make here (I hope). Because I believe it needs to be said.

This isn't just about women, it's about all the trans women and men out there who just want to live their lives in peace.

Get me back every minute, every tear, and every dollar I've spent mitigating the very real damage done by an adult trans family member who "just wanted to live life in peace" instead of getting their Axis II-ass into appropriate therapy so they could continue to function like a fucking adult instead of trying to enmesh and emotionally abuse the entire family to sustain their internet-therapist-aided AGP fantasies -- do that, and then I'll be in a space where I can sit down with tea and biscuits and entertain the corrupt and disingenuous notion that "TIMs just want to live their lives in peace."

This is a dangerous fantasy. I do know old-school transsexuals for whom that is true. I haven't yet met a "modern" TIM for whom it is true. And I'm not about to unlearn the years-long-lessons I've learned around this.

(edit for spelling)

[–]Jksmiddlefinger 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No way! I’m fighting for womens rights first and last. If GC trans want to follow us then fine but I refuse to make any concessions for them.

[–]weirdthorn 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

No, it's not. It's in the name: gender critical. Transgender people aren't critical of gender, they embrace it to the point of altering their body to fit gender.

[–]Overdrive[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

The goods they have been sold is that they can change their sex. Anyone can adopt any gender roles, at any time. I don't quite believe that they are altering their body to fit gender. They think they are altering their body to fit their desired sex which they are attaching to a gender. Both are wrong with my views. They will always be a trans woman, because that is just what they are.

[–]Marsupial 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They are men, they will always be men, that's it. "Trans women" are not women and "trans women" is not a separate gender or sex. What the fuck is this coddling and pandering to men?

[–]Overdrive[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They don't have to be a sex nor a gender for them to fight for their own damn spaces.

[–]weirdthorn 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Anyone can adopt any gender roles, at any time.

Yup, that would be GNC.

I don't quite believe that they are altering their body to fit gender. They think they are altering their body to fit their desired sex which they are attaching to a gender.

Since gender = sex-roles, of course their alteration would targed sex-characteristics.

They will always be a trans woman, because that is just what they are.

They are men.

[–]PassionateIntensity 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't. Transwomen are men. Men aren't covered by feminism. I notice you left out the transmen aka, the actual women, being brutalized by this ideology. I care about them, even if they don't want me to and don't want to be considered women.

[–]Lemonade_Masquerade 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Like, I don't want trans people to die or have less rights for however they want to express their gender. But really, I want to nothing them. I want them to fuck off and leave us alone. Maybe I could have extended some energy to them if they actually were allies for women's causes. But since they actively are fighting against what I am most passionate about, then idc what they do.

I don't even believe men "playing" with the things women are expected to do by society is innocuous. It could be, in a vacuum. Maybe it will be in a post-gender role world. But for an example, the cosmetic industry makes its money by encouraging women to be ornamental, many times to the point of damaging their health. Men "playing" with make up supports the practice without any of the real harm that it places on women. I'd rather focus on normalizing women to be free to be natural and not needing to be pretty for men, before supporting men's freedom to play with their gender.

[–]DarthVelma 34 insightful - 3 fun34 insightful - 2 fun35 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Nope.

Agree with pretty much everyone else in the comments. I give less than a shit about TIMs at this point. I most emphatically AM NOT working on their behalf in any way, shape, or form.

My feminism is about women. Full stop.

I'll start giving a shit about men in dresses the day they start doing a damn thing for actual women...which will be the 12th Tuesday of Never.

[–]Bitchcraft 44 insightful - 3 fun44 insightful - 2 fun45 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

Why do people think feminism has to be some pity party that tries to benefit everybody? Trans issues are not women's issues. Feminists don't have to "adopt" all sorts of other issues to earn the right to not be accused of being against something.

I miss the downvote button.

[–]Overdrive[S] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

I take your downvote in spirit!

It's ok, I can see not many here agree that we should also have concern for the silent majority of trans folk. I don't wish to scare any of them away from being GC, because anyone can be GC. It's not just about trans ideology.

I think it'd be worthwhile to consider the fact that if we try to shut down the other side completely, as the TRA's are doing to us, then we are no better.

[–]Bitchcraft 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I think the point where we have our disagreement is the difference between disengagement and counter-activism. I have no interest in actively antagonizing trans people who are reasonable, just like I have nothing against men and don't advocate for a single 'anti-man' policy. To me asking radfems to 'protect trans people' is no different than asking r/PCOS to 'use trans-inclusive language'.

[–]Overdrive[S] 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

I see, that's pretty understandable. I know where everyone is coming from when they find issue with my standpoint here. I wish I could articulate it well. I just don't want to see anyone smeared for sharing our views. It's not that I want to protect them. More like to extend the olive branch. Because it doesn't matter who you are, if you come out as gender critical you will be smeared.

Let me ask you this. So you've been banned from reddit. Smeared online. Let go from your job. Your government has laws in place that make it shockingly hard to question things. It's shockingly easy to obtain serious hormonal drugs. Your public schools are teaching trans ideology beginning at age five. And here we are, on saidit. Boxed in, shaved off, squared away. Pushed to the back of the closet. What are you going to do? How do you make things happen, and are those things working?

I think about that, and I realize that some of our most valuable allies in this may, in fact be, gender critical trans people. You can hate the idea and that's fine, I just am trying to better understand myself in this too and my views as everything progresses. If a trans person wants to get out and advocate for GC, I say great because I'm doing fuck all just posting on the internet and donating here and there.

[–]WrongToy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm going to let this stand despite the report but I think it deserves a reply.

I think we all agree that we find certain TIMs more tolerable than others. But we aren't sisters to any TIM.

Second GC TIMs are like true unicorns. It's maybe Miranda Yardley and Jenn Smith.Probably more Jenn as he identifies as a GNC man and is honest about it.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Have you ever extended an olive branch to an undiagnosed/untreated bipolar, narcissism, or borderline patient?

Do you have any idea of the extent of the overlap of those personality disorders with TIMs and TRAs?

I highly recommend against it.

ETA: The small part of this puzzle I'm working on is to clear up the clinical fog around how deeply disordered this behavior really is. The more that enabling entities like Tavistock are exposed, the better.

[–]jkfinn 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yup, trans wants women to believe that “I am you, and you are me, and we are one together,” but obviously what gender criticism has to say about transgender is that trans is the displacement or colonization of female identity, culture, and history or an end to women and women’s politics.

[–]adultxhumanxfemale 41 insightful - 1 fun41 insightful - 0 fun42 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I absolutely do NOT stand up for the rights of trans women aka dudes in dresses. What an asinine thing to say. GC isn't about protecting TiMs.

[–]RevengeOfTheCis 37 insightful - 1 fun37 insightful - 0 fun38 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Damn right, thank you! TIMs can fucking protect themselves, they're the ones with literally EVERYONE on their side. The last thing we need is for GC to start "protecting" them, too. We are the ones who need protecting from THEM!

[–]adultxhumanxfemale 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thought I was in a different sub for a second. I'm pretty sure it's a troll but I had to respond to make sure that anyone new to the idea who might be reading this doesn't get confused by the rhetoric.

I'm sure there are going to be an influx of TRAs and other various trolls who have no life coming in and disrupting the message since they won't be able to silence us here like they were able to do on reddit. If you can't silence you obfuscate. Classic.

[–]RevengeOfTheCis 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Unfortunately probably not a troll. Lately I've seen a lot of posts and comments similar to this on the GC subreddit before reddit shut us down. I think it's the usual case of a woman caving to the pressure to be "nice" and watering down her arguments because of it.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Or (let's hope) women waking up from the trance of "being nice" and beginning to think it through.

[–]RevengeOfTheCis 69 insightful - 1 fun69 insightful - 0 fun70 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

This isn't just about women, it's about all the trans women and men out there who just want to live their lives in peace.

Really? Even GC feminism can't be "just" about women anymore? Am I the only one who actually WANTS something to be "just" about women for once?

This doesn't even make sense because GC feminism isn't just about trans bullshit. It's also about the porn industry, the beauty industry, sexist depictions of women in media, gender discrimination in the workforce, all kinds of things that impact women because of the gender stereotypes those things force upon us.

And you know what's interesting about those things I just listed? Trans "women" fucking LOVE all of them. Hell, half of them credit that shit as the reason for their transition.

Being GC doesn't make you transphobic. It makes you pro-woman, which TIMs are not. We aren't transphobic, they're misogynist.

[–]Bitchcraft 35 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 0 fun36 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Also not how TRAs are not makeing women's issues their issues. Feminists are supposed to do all sorts of advocacy for others, but get nothing in return.

[–]RevengeOfTheCis 33 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 0 fun34 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. I've never once seen a TIM advocate for better maternity leave in the US, but I sure have seen plenty of them demand childfree women give them a uterus.

[–]AreYouSureee 33 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 0 fun34 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

According to them, not believing trans women are women makes me a TERF. So, I’m a TERF. Trans women are men.

[–]Overdrive[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You're not a TERF doesn't matter what they say, let them say it they'll eventually hang themselves.