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[–]medium_tomato[S] 42 insightful - 2 fun42 insightful - 1 fun43 insightful - 2 fun -  (63 children)

I understand that you might have different issues than I have in my culture in regards to your gender roles but it honestly just sounds like oppression olympics tbh. It would be so much better to address the issues of black women without fracturing the whole feminist movement.

[–]our_team_is_winning 39 insightful - 1 fun39 insightful - 0 fun40 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I agree it's the Oppression Olympics. I hate victimhood culture. Yes, people need to stand up for themselves, but the victimhood approach is setting whichever group up to be beyond criticism. Intersectionality seems like a tool of division to me. What all women have in common is the crappy way we are often treated simply because we are women. Do other factors come into play? Of course. Older, heavier women are going to get worse treatment than young, slim women, for example. Too many tangents for me. Right now we have laws denying that women even exist as women! Suddenly men are legally women. I don't want to see women's rights fracture over race, religion, or whatever else. We're back at square one when we have men claiming to be women.

[–]spinningIntelligence 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

How is pointing out racism "victimhood culture"? Is pointing out misogyny victimhood culture? Are we part of victimhood culture by saying the trans movement is anti-woman?

This hatred of the "Oppression Olympics" is honestly laughable. Yes, liberal idiots have turned being oppressed into a checklist. That does not mean that we can ignore oppression!

Why should women of colour feel more connected to white women than to their own families? A Black woman may not be friends with a single white woman, but her brothers, her lovers, her SONS may be Black.

So really, what is this unity you are proposing? What value does it have? Because it sounds like you're expecting women of colour to drop everything to campaign for white women to be free, even though a woman of colour may be oppressed far more directly due to her race (she may inherent her family's poverty, for example). And if she is a lesbian, than what direct benefit does she get from the feminist movement rather than the gay rights movement? She's not going to get pregnant, and the gay rights movement supports single sex spaces too. Sure, the gay movement won't care about single sex bathrooms as much, but that may not be a pressing concern for her. There are other things happening in the world apart from transgenderism; we don't get to demand that everyone focus on this one thing that we have decided to fight. There are people in the world without access to clean water; why are we worrying about bathrooms?

Racism is an out growth of patriarchy, like transgenderism; we cannot ignore it because holding ourselves to the same standards we hold other oppressive groups (for example, men) to makes us uncomfortable. Feminism, unlike many other movements, cannot be divorced from class, or race, or country, or orientation, because misogyny is the ur example of oppression. All manner of foul things grow from it.

Real unity requires recognizing these hideous outgrowths. It requires fighting them, and standing beside our disadvantaged sisters as much as we can. We do not get to create a "victimhood culture" in response to transgenderism, but berate others for doing the same.

[–]Terfenclaw 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for saying this. As a WOC, the OP and the number of agreeing votes with it make me feel alienated from this sub.

TRAs insist there is no difference between transwomen and women and thus remove the language we have to speak meaningfully about our oppression. Saying that we can't reference "white feminism" in contrast to black or any other woc would remove our ability to speak about ways in which actual racial issues affect our oppression as well.

[–]voi_che_sapete 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. Differences among women, especially racially, are important. That's why it's even worse that TRAs have co-opted this important concept which helps feminists of color articulate the way their experiences differ from white feminists. They have weaponized it to disguise the real difference between themselves and women, which is biological sex. WOC feminists, I'm sorry this idea is being put forth at all. Screw this.

[–][deleted] 31 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 0 fun32 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It wasn't the oppression olympics nor did it fracture the whole feminist movement (anymore than white feminists did by ignoring the sexism/racism combination faced by black women) until it was appropriated by the woke crowd. Instead of demonizing an important tool black feminists needed to describe and get others to understand their reality was a different one, perhaps we should demonize those who stole it and colonized it for use in their political movement.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (43 children)

I don't think intersectionalism in itself is bad. But intersectional arguments that black women have it so much worse, for example, do really take the wind out of white women's sails.

White women are particularly harmed by gender stereotypes of white feminity-- that we are coddled, babyfied, weak, and we are even more sexually objectified than black women are. Yes, it gives us some privilege over black women which is not right, but it also harms us more in other ways.

It is also much less acceptable for us to stand up for ourselves than it is for black women. I think sometimes black women take advantage of that. Other times, they are right that white women weaponize their femininity against black women. It would be nice to get back to basics and just be respectful of differences.

[–]lefterfield 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

white women weaponize their femininity against black women

Do they? What does this mean?

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Things like crying when criticized for being racist, for example. It can be done in a calculated manner to shut black people up, including black women. The K*ren slur originally comes from white women doing things like that, or calling the police on black people for being black. Of course now it's just used to oppress white women generally or to ridicule any older white woman who has a complaint, which shows how fuzzy these lines can get. The tools we use to attack black people, as white women, are usually the same things that are our oppression.

[–]lefterfield 39 insightful - 1 fun39 insightful - 0 fun40 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Skeptical about the crying thing. This has been a misogynist attack against women generally, that we manipulate men with our tears. Being called racist would be upsetting if you're a generally nice person, and could cause some to be so distressed they start crying. Most people don't have that much control over their emotional reactions. The "Karen" slur originally came from a misogynist male on reddit who wanted to bash his ex-wife.

[–][deleted] 25 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

The Karen slur actually started with a Dane Cook comedy skit in 2005, before being started up in 2017 by the reddit user fuck_you_karen. I keep hearing it originated in black women circles, but I've yet to see the evidence of that, while there's plenty of evidence it started with and is mostly used by white men.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Fair enough, I keep hearing that too and just assumed it was true. All the more reason to oppose it-- I absolutely hate it, it's sexist as hell to throw that term around and giggle.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

Sure, it's a natural reaction to cry. It's also something that shuts down criticism. It can be both. I personally think that our being socialized to cry easily is very handicapping, as is men's socialization to not cry ever. Crying should be a rare but powerfully meaningful social cue that anyone should respect when it happens. As it is, white women cry so much that it is just a commonplace defense mechanism. No one really takes us any more seriously when white women cry; quite the opposite.

Fair on the origins of the K*ren slur, I've been beat over the head with that story so many times I assumed it was true. But I don't really know if it is.

[–]Shesstealthy 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Survey of one, but I cried very easily as a girl and was vilified for it. It's not applauded or encouraged.

[–]lefterfield 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That suggests it's not an effective weapon, though, nor a racist one. I don't think women should be criticized for bad socialization lessons - acknowledge that it's the product of socialization and work to undo the harmful effects, sure. But accusing them of weaponizing a behavior they were taught to do, and in some cases punished for NOT doing... not really fair.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Should we accuse men of weaponizing their behaviors, even if they were raised with them and it's hard for them to undo that socialization? Of course, we do it all the time here. Why should we treat ourselves any differently? Radical change starts with us, and it's not supposed to be easy.

It really is not fair, but it IS our responsibility to change the things about ourselves that are holding us back. I think crying too easily is one of those things. It's a really hard thing to curb in yourself, no doubt. But it is performing femininity, and it is manipulative, even if we don't mean for it to be that way.

[–]Anna_Nym 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Crying is an emotional reaction. It's rarely something people do on purpose and I don't know of a single "Karen" story or video that actually includes tears. The idea of tears as manipulative is something that I've always seen on MRA sites, and I think it's weird and troubling that it was imported into contemporary feminism with so little data or pushback.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, I don't agree that we accuse men of "weaponizing masculinity." We accuse them of being violent, of being entitled to our spaces and our bodies by their actions and their words. But accusing women crying of being manipulative is saying that crying itself is harmful - you're assuming that when certain groups do it, they intend harm. In that case, raise the question: Who is allowed to cry, under what circumstances, in order to prove that they're not being manipulative?

Now, I agree that people should change socialized behaviors that cause harm to them or to those around them. But accusing women of being manipulative by showing emotion is a misogynistic tactic, and it's not an argument for why women shouldn't cry in public. Sometimes, women should cry in public. Sometimes, men should cry in public. This bullshit about women being manipulative is just that - men are every bit as manipulative, emotionally or otherwise, just their behavior is rarely called such.

[–]immersang 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for putting this so very well.

[–]jet199 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Any evidence that women are socialised to cry more rather than it being a biology based reaction? Seeing as that difference between men and women crying exists in every culture in the world while gender roles differ.

You seem to have fallen for the misogynistic lie that woman only show emotion to manipulate and don't actually have human feelings you need to worry about.

[–]Realwoman 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No evidence. Women cry more than men, that's why crying is considered inferior. It's pure misogyny

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In my culture, there was no punishment for men crying. Women on the other hand had to take abuse with a smile. Kind of like Ju Li from the Earth Kingdom. Women don’t cry more than men. That’s an American manifestation of gender.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You've gone too far the other way. Of course everyone should be allowed to cry. Everyone has feelings, and some people feel more strongly and are more sensitive than others. But why is it always that women seem to cry more and are more sensitive? It's just gender performance. There's nothing innate about whether boys or girls cry more before the age of about 5-7. Yet boys stop crying as much from the time they enter school (at least openly), while girls cry comparatively more.

I don't have any statistics to back this up, just a lifetime of living around men and other women in the United States. It seems to be the consensus on this thread that women do cry more, with the exception of one commenter who says it's the opposite in her country. Some are looking for a biological basis for this behavior. I don't know why on a gender critical forum folks are so defensive about their female right to crying, but that goes against everything we stand for here to say it's just "female brain".

I get that it's hard to be critical of a comforting behavior we all are raised to do (with the exception of one person), but crying a lot is gender performance. And it holds us back.

[–]Maeven 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If children stop crying it's because they're being punished for crying. That's not performative it's abusive. They don't have conscious control over it.

I'm female and yet I stopped crying publicly as a child, too. I know EXACTLY why boys stop crying.

Men suffer from patriarchy? Yes, in some ways they DO.

[–]chrysthefeminist 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't understand this women cry easily and more than men business. I am a woman and I didn't cry for years. I still mostly don't cry at all.

[–]Realwoman 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wasn't socialized to cry. I was socialized to not let other people see me cry and I would hold back my tears as well as I can. I still cry easily. I try not to let others see me and I cry in private unless I can't help it. I've been accused of crying manipulatively. Don't spread this myth

[–]PenseePansy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most people don't have that much control over their emotional reactions.

THIS! Esp. since professional actors, no less-- including the most highly-skilled ones-- often can't cry on command! (It's apparently not a common ability, even for them.) So I've always had my doubts about the average woman being able to pull this off.

Which doesn't mean that they (or, for that matter, men/boys/girls) don't TRY; I've witnessed numerous public examples of fake-crying over the years. But there's something I've noticed about these: the tip-off that they ARE fake. Remember Susan Smith? Young, white, claimed that some black guy came outta nowhere and murdered her kids, turned out that she did it? Memorable playing-the-sympathy-card-via-ostensible-bawling there (at least till she 'fessed up): whole lotta sad facial expressions & sobbing voice... but never any actual tears. 'Cause THAT'S what "crying" really is, apparently: overwhelming tearful emotion. If you remain suspiciously dry-eyed throughout? Odds are that you're just pretending.

Also, though? "Genuine crying" is NOT proof that you're the victim! Could just mean that, as the victimizer, you're sad about, and/or scared of, being held accountable for your shitty actions.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"Genuine crying" is NOT proof that you're the victim! Could just mean that, as the victimizer, you're sad about, and/or scared of, being held accountable for your shitty actions.

Yeah, it could be. Just because someone's upset, doesn't mean they're right or that they're owed sympathy from others. But on average, in the absence of other evidence, I'd lean toward saying that if someone looks genuinely upset, they probably are.

[–]Marsupial 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

I don't think you could have been more wrong tbh. It's a fact that there are variances to how women are percieved in different cultures. I believe few women are as priviliged as white women. White women are still hurt by sexism but I believe it is inaccurate to portray it as white women having a more difficult time overall than WoC.
It's not a competition. Feminism includes all women. Different cultures have different problems. Different groups have different ways of oppressing women, it's the misogyny that's universal. White women are exposed to sexism but are NOT the most vulnerable group of women.

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

White refers to so many different ethnicities in so many different countries you can't generalize. Are Ukrainian women privileged?

[–]odateya 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Now come on, don't do that. Black women have globally been spat on for hundreds of years, please list all of these countries where black women's voices are actually valued. If I, a black woman go to Ukraine will I suddenly be swimming in privilege greater than a white woman's? If not there, then please tell me where this magical country is located. White woman are globally regarded as the most "respectable" voices among women and you know that.

[–]Anna_Nym 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you're illustrating the OP's point, though. Sexism disadvantages us all, which is what feminism is supposed to focus on. It's also frustrating to see these conversations get reduced down to black and white, as though those are the only two options in the world (if we're going to play Oppression Olympics, why don't we talk much more about Native American/First Nations women for example? Why don't we acknowledge Asian women's economic success in the US?). I also don't think it makes sense to speak of black and white like these are homogeneous categories when there are many differences within them.

Our goal should be to understand the ways in which our various identities make our experiences of sexism specific. But to do that, we need to actually listen to each other rather than project beliefs onto each other. My personal experiences with feminist spaces is that "intersectional" spaces instead do encourage Oppression Olympics. (The actual concept of "intersectionality" does not do this, but the term has come to be used very differently than what Crenshaw originally wrote about.)

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you American? If so, you live in the richest country on earth. You would never need to go live in the Ukraine because why would you live in an impoverished country with a war next door? You have an American privilege. The vast majority of Ukrainian women will never reach your affluence level and will never get a chance to live in an affluent country. Even poor Americans have a better quality of life than many middle class people around the world. Your American privilege outweighs any racial privilege by a lot.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

WRT black or African women? Yes. WRT Western Europeans, less so.

[–]Realwoman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What is WRT?

What about Albanian women compared with Korean women? Or Russian women compared with African American women?

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

With respect to.

Albanians in America would be in a better position than Korean women in America. A Russian white woman will be in a better position to an African American woman. The last one is a no brainer.

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why is everything about them in America? The vast majority of people cannot emigrate to another country. Compare them in their native countries.

And why do you think that Muslims such as Albanians will be better off in America than East Asians?

You can't ignore privilege based on the affluence of the country you live in. People in affluent countries have an enormous privilege and it's rarely acknowledged.

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm really only talking about Anglophone, or maaaaybe Anglophone + Western European women. But mainly just American whites. Ukraine would probably feel more foreign to me than South Africa, TBH.

[–]medium_tomato[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh then maybe stop using the word white? We are not a fucking monolith. Just like guess what, black women in the US have a buttload more privilege than women in Africa but no one wants to talk about that now do they?

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I mean you're the one who doesn't want to talk about intersectionality anymore? I'm sorry if it's confusing to some, but most of us on here are from the US. I don't really feel the need to clarify further when we are all mostly from the US here and speaking English.

[–]Realwoman 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What about women that are white but they're immigrants to the west from poor countries? They stand out, they have accents, they have little in common with white people in the the host country, they didn't grown up using that white privilege, they grew up with parents making $200 a month. Are they privileged?

[–]voi_che_sapete 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You can absolutely generalize in Western countries.

[–]Realwoman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Western countries are very diverse

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I absolutely agree that few women are so privileged as your average white woman. My point is that even though we are very privileged, we have struggles too. I am having a hard time understanding why you think I am turning it into an oppression competition-- I tried to explain as well as I could that I am not. Even if Western white women have a lot of privilege, arguably the most of any women ever, we still have struggles. Of course every kind of person will have different kinds of struggles. They aren't the same, and we shouldn't try to rank them. But we should support each other in our mutual struggle for radical change, to be respected as individual humans and not simply the woman of some man.

The double edged nature of white female privilege is the main struggle for white women, to my mind. It offers a lot of protection, but in order to use it, we have to perform femininity. That keeps us from achieving our goal of liberation.

It's really hard to notice the things that make up your privilege-- but stuff like how easily we cry, since we are talking about that. That feels natural, because we've been socialized to perform this. But only babies and toddlers cry more than an American white woman. Every white American girl knew who was crying in the bathroom at a school function or whatever, and probably was that girl at one time or another. It's performing femininity, but it feels really natural, very comforting, and it's very hard to not cry when you are used to crying whenever you want. I should know, I have always been an infamous crybaby. It has taken me a lot of work to get to the point where I don't cry every time I say no to something. Do I mean for my crying to manipulate people into doing what I want? No. But is my crying manipulative? Yes.

Radical change starts with us, and it's never comfortable or easy. How can we expect men to respect us as fellow humans if we resort to childish, manipulative tactics like crying? How can we expect them to change things about themselves, if we refuse to change anything about ourselves? I get that it's hard, and it's not our fault we were raised this way. It isn't fair to have to work so hard to curb such comforting habits we've had since birth. But it's our responsibility to fight for ourselves, and this is just one example of a way that I think intersectionality is important even for privileged women, to target the kinds of radical changes that we need to make for ourselves. And also to work together to fight for radical change on behalf of each other.

[–]RestingWitchface 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That feels natural, because we've been socialized to perform this.

You can fuck right off with this. I have never received any kind of praise or benefits for crying in front of someone. I have been called "crazy", "manipulative", "weak", and all manner of other things though. The idea that women's crying is manipulative is right out of the misogynist's handbook. My tears are not a "performance", they are in involuntary reaction to feeling a strong emotion.

[–]Lemonade_Masquerade 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fucking THIS. This "women are allowed to cry, men aren't" is such bullshit. We aren't taken seriously when we cry, we are "over emotional" and "hysterical." I mean, sure, I guess little boys are told to "man up" when they cry, but that's about it. The entire world takes men's emotions more seriously than women. After all, look at that sad rapist. He feels bad for getting caught making a mistake! Let's not ruin the poor man's life!

I'm a crier. I can't help it. My mother would spank me if cried about something she deemed "unimportant" and it didn't make me less of a crier as I got older. It just ramps up my anxiety when I feel tears coming on now and I cry harder because I get more upset by the fact that I am crying.

[–]immersang 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm a crier. I can't help it. My mother would spank me if cried about something she deemed "unimportant" and it didn't make me less of a crier as I got older. It just ramps up my anxiety when I feel tears coming on now and I cry harder because I get more upset by the fact that I am crying.

Same. My mom wouldn't spank me but she also couldn't deal with it and would snap at me to "stop wailing". It didn't change anything. If I would have been able to basically switch a button to stop the waterworks from starting, I would have done so in a heartbeat.

[–]Spikygrasspod 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I guess there's always a trade off. If we're more unified we're a bigger, more powerful group and can get things done, but people with multiple disadvantages may not be as well served by our movement. If we pay attention to other aspects like race, we may be more divided but more capable of helping women in the ways that work for them specifically. I think racism is one of the big issues, as is class/poverty, so I'm happy to consider those in my feminism. But I'm wary about being too fine grained or splitting into too many groups. ETA It seems like people are using intersectionality to mean different things. If it means include everyone and get distracted from the core idea - women's rights - then it's a problem. If it just means consider other social justice issues... shouldn't that be fine?

[–]Marsupial 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's not oppression olympics. It's a fact that some countries and some cultures are further along when it comes to women's right than others.

[–]medium_tomato[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And the west is starting to go backwards in that regard. So are we just going to ignore it until we don't have this mythical privilege anymore, and then we can focus on clawing our way back from oppression?