Intersectionalism is the worst thing to happen to feminism.

Thatstealthygal · 2020-07-21T06:38:49+00:00

Intersectionalism is a black feminist thing and it is very important. Hijab being a choice is not an intersectionalist position. Intersectionalism merely identifies multiple nodes of oppression alongside the one we all share, ie being women, and asks us to take those things into consideration.

endthewoo · 2020-07-21T12:44:20+00:00

The original concept (Kimberle Crenshaw) was fine and made sense in context. The problem is it being twisted beyond recognition such that it has lost any useful meaning at all. It was originally about material realities (workplace discrimination and recourse under law) but is now all about identity-oppression-olympics IOW complete bullshit.

censorshipment · 2020-07-21T09:11:07+00:00

This is why the GC subreddit was not only reported by TRAs but also black women (such as the blackladies sub mods and members). There is a thread on lipstickalley about the GC sub where although they agree that trans women are men, they also saw the GC sub as racist. Black women cannot exclude antiblack racism from our feminism. We are black first, women second, in the world.

As I pointed out on the gc_woc sub before it was banned... first wave feminism started after the anti-slavery movement... abolitionists became suffragists... and then second wave feminism started after the civil rights movement... civil rights activists became second-wave feminists. You cannot remove racism from feminism... black women started the movements.

Just like Stormé DeLarverie started the Stonewall riots.

With that said... I don't support intersectional feminism lol it's too messy, and educated/upper middle class women never listen to uneducated/poor women regardless of race/ethnicity. In my little city, there are two black feminist groups divided by class. It's sad but necessary because the educated black women are so uppity and conservative.

Feminism needs the Fannie Lou Hamer type of activist... she scared a feared president, Lyndon B. Johnson. A powerful white man feared an angry black woman. Fannie started a new Democratic party in Mississippi since white Democrats were racists.

https://www.americanyawp.com/reader/27-the-sixties/fannie-lou-hamer-testimony-at-the-democratic-national-convention-1964/

https://blavity.com/blavity-original/nobodys-free-until-everybodys-free-fannie-lou-hamers-legacy-is-more-important-now-than-ever

At a 1971 National Women's Political Caucus event, she gave one of her most famous speeches titled “Nobody's Free Until Everybody's Free."

"Now, we've got to have some changes in this country. And not only changes for the black man, and only changes for the black woman, but the changes we have to have in this country are going to be for liberation of all people — because nobody's free until everybody's free,” she told the crowd.

“And this is something that should have been done for a long time because a white mother is no different from a black mother. The only thing is they haven't had as many problems. But we cry the same tears and under the skin, it's the same kind of red blood," she added.

✊🏾✊🏾✊🏾

meranii · 2020-07-21T16:13:44+00:00

I have no problem with intersectional feminism in the academic sense, but online it's been misunderstood as sort of a "privilege tally/ladder" where you have more or fewer privilege points than someone else and you are automatically an oppressor or a victim, i.e. a "cis" woman is more privileged than a transwoman and therefore the individual transwoman is justified in endlessly shitting on "cis" women, despite women as a class having been systematically oppressed and used as breeding stock for thousands of years, and the transwoman might just be a horny straight neckbeard with an AGP fetish whose family has coddled him his entire life.

It really has created an "us vs. them" feminism and I'm not sure how we're supposed to get out of this toxic mode of thinking, because currently I think feminism is much more fractured and weaker than it's ever been.

Anna_Nym · 2020-07-21T12:04:03+00:00

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anfd · 2020-07-21T10:44:44+00:00

It has also been said that we don't need feminism dividing the workers' movement. Or we don't need the workers' movement dividing the national movement. We're all just people etc. (which is also true of course). But it seems it happens quite easily that, for all practical purposes, the more general term starts to refer only to the currently dominant group. So when discussing what "the people" need, it's really about what men need. Ditto for "national" interest, which might turn out to be the interests of the propertied and educated classes; "women's issues" = white heterosexual women's issues etc.

There is no idea someone will not take to a logical extreme and blow out of all proportion. I can't say whether or not this has happened to intersectionality to some extent, but if it feels that for some it's now a worldview and a confession of faith rather than an analytical tool, then to that extent it probably has happened. But that doesn't discredit the idea itself. Thatstealthygal's comment has it right IMO.

Also, an organisational split based on different political approaches might be principled and useful, or it might be a sectarian adventure. Which it is would have to estimated on a case by case basis, rather than on principles like unity or independence. Like intersectionality, organisational unity and organisational independence are tools, not principles, and there will always be disagreement on which tool is the right one in a given situation.

mrh2 · 2020-07-21T10:50:40+00:00

Well said. Intersectionalism makes absolutely no sense.

cybitch · 2020-07-21T23:08:52+00:00

Yes, this is why I don't call myself a feminist anymore. Because now when you call yourself a feminist people assume you stand for a whole bunch of things that have nothing to do with women's rights or go against them, like islam - if you point out that muslims are not exactly pro-women you're "islamophobic". The only feminist views I hold are those that involve standing for women's rights. Unfortunately that's no longer what the word means.

Complicated-Spirit · 2020-07-22T02:15:48+00:00

I feel like intersectional feminism sounds good on paper and was founded with good intentions, but has devolved into:

The idea of: fuck white women. Seriously. More than once, I’ve seen commands for white women to sit down, shut up, and stay quiet by people speaking “on behalf” of all WOC. The idea that white women are privileged has extended to the idea that white women have it so good that they never even really needed feminism. They’re all racist, they’re all wealthy, they’re all Trump supporters, they’re all selfish, they’re all shallow, they’re all fake libfem “sex-positive” assholes who think nothing of throwing any WOC under the bus to prevent their kids from attending the same school as their own. White women went from “women who are still women, and thus subject to sexism and the female experience, but also possess white privilege” to “human garbage universally deserving of hatred and derision”. White women who attempt to speak on feminism often find themselves reminded not to do so because they’re white - the fact that they’re women is irrelevant.
The focus on TiMs as “women” has pushed whatever focus there may have been on WOC out of the spotlight and instead, has made what was supposed to be a feminism that recognized WOC, a false feminism that glorified black TiMs and couldn’t be bothered to remember that WOC actually exist. When “intersectional feminism” met BLM, the result wasn’t “Black Women’s Lives Matter”, and there is little-to-no recognition of lesbian, bisexual, or asexual WOC in either the BLM, intersectional feminism, or Pride movements - instead, it’s simply “Black Trans Lives Matter”, and by Black Trans Lives, they mean Black TiM lives. Every discussion on WOC or feminism in general seems to be derailed to “But what about transwomen, why aren’t you including them?” and when it gets pointed out that, say, a talk on menstruation taboos doesn’t really have a way of explicitly including TiMs in a way that they can provide their own experiences to the group in a way that is truly relatable to females, we get smugly reminded that we’re not being “intersectional” enough. “Fuck white women” includes shutting white women down for not being WOC, and for not being trans.
It goes with the assumption that anything criticizing Islam as a religion, and not Muslims as a people, is “Islamophobic”. Yes, Christianity and Judaism are old-fashioned, oppressive belief systems, but Islam, we’re told, is liberating for women, because Islamic leaders tell us it is. A Christian woman who covers her hair during Holy Week is giving in to patriarchal oppression (and is probably white too, so fuck her), but a Muslim woman who wears hijab is “empowered”. How does this relate to intersectional feminism? In intersectional feminism, we can tell our stories of how our religious upbringing has held us back - and only if it has held us back, since if someone has had a positive experience of Christianity or Judaism is going against the narrative, which is that those religions are dominant, and thus always oppressive and monolithic by their nature. But in Islam, the narrative switches back: one can only have a positive view of it. The same requirements that were perceived as repressive and backwards in other faiths, even taken to a further extreme in Islam, are now represented as being progressive and pro-women. It’s an inherently dishonest and internally illogical way of reasoning.

Catshit · 2020-07-21T11:05:24+00:00

I don't understand how there isn't a way to make something similat to this model work. Why not have feminist groups that have women of color and/or black women, depending on the area, take on topics that are important that they see in their community and introduce the topic during a town hall. Ideas for what to do to fix it can be discussed (who to start mailing/contacting, whether there needs to be protests, etc.) And then (wo)manpower delegated to start on those projects. This allows black women and or WOC to be heard, allows them to introduce a possible solution or what they would like to do, and then hauls in support without stepping on toes.

Am I making it sound too easy? I just feel like it shouldn't be as hard as it seems to be to work together to get things taken care of.

jet199 · 2020-07-21T19:12:45+00:00

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Marsupial · 2020-07-21T22:08:10+00:00

Intersectionalism in terms of working for equality over races and culture is important and is definitely not the worst thing to feminism. If feminism is for all women it needs to be intersectional. Feminism needs to act for the freedom and safety of all women regardless of race and class.
Accepting oppression because it's part of a culture, like the burqa and similar, is a different thing.

slushpilot · 2020-07-21T22:31:54+00:00

Yup. Intersectionality is a virus that has infected every progressive movement, feminism included.

It preys on the goodwill of anyone who believes in fighting for the less-privileged, by subverting the movement towards addressing the needs of smaller and smaller fractions of people, instead of addressing major themes that are common to all.

kr66t · 2020-07-21T21:08:46+00:00

I've been listening to some talks with Helen Pluckrose recently and I've found myself thinking a lot about this constant victim mentality that a lot of everyone seem to be stuck in. I would also ask - is intersectionality black feminism or is it part of the postmodernist theory?

spinningIntelligence · 2020-07-21T21:43:08+00:00

Men are raped, too, you know? And women can be abusers, so why talk about MALE violence specifically? We're all in this together, and this is just creating unnecessary division.

And why talk about the misogyny of liberal men if we're all fighting for other causes together? We need to be united, so don't bring up their misogyny otherwise you're "ruining" the movement.

Women's oppression is inextricably linked to family. If a woman's family is under constant threat of violence she cannot be free. You cannot ignore how racism impacts women, and pointing out racist behaviour isn't a threat to our "unity". Being racist, however, is.

Men aren't a monolith either but we still talk about men as a class. There are poor men, disabled men, men in developing countries without access to clean water let alone the internet, men who've been horrendously abused, men who've been beaten for being gay. And still male privilege exists.

I'm not sure what your point is here; don't point out racism if women do it? We should all be judged as individuals and we have no collective interests? Does this apply to obscenely wealthy women, too?

jet199 · 2020-07-21T21:44:10+00:00

My main problem with it is it ignores culture and it ignores every problem a person or group might have which isn't oppression. It's a blunt tool.

If might work in a middle class area of America where everyone, no matter their race, shares the same culture but most places don't have racial division like that.

One thing which struck me was when people were arguing "what if a white person was terminally ill wouldn't that make them worse off that a black person" and the answer was "but a terminally ill white person would still be less oppressed than a terminally ill black person." Maybe but you just can't assume one category always has it worse than another in every situation without proof. Intersectionality was a thought experiment not a throughly researched and evidenced theory. One shitty thing about white culture is they often don't stay close with their families. If you get old and ill as a white person you are quite likely to be stuck in a home by your children and abandoned while in a different culture you could be looked after in a family home with loved ones around you. This is the difference culture makes to outcomes, they can be very different to what you might predict from models which put groups in power categories.

mambean · 2020-07-22T06:31:22+00:00

First off, intersectional feminism only includes women, so TIMs should and will never be a factor because they are men, even if they believe they are not.

I think you might be misunderstanding what intersectionality is (and actually also confusing it with libfem values, which imo can be separate). I'm a black woman, and a bisexual radical feminist, my feminism needs to speak to the unique issues I have with race and sexuality that would be different because I am a woman, things that a black bisexual man would not encounter. Let me give you an example of intersectional thinking in feminism:

Case A: During the suffragette era, black women were made to march at the back of protests because white suffragettes felt it would make their message harder to absorb to the public. There were even racist suffragettes like Elizabeth Cady Stanton who wanted white women to vote because black men's votes were being considered - and thus wanted to strengthen the white vote and race. This is an example of race-exclusionary feminism. Thankfully we also had race inclusionary feminists like Sylvia Pankhurst.

Case B: During the rise of radical feminism, many radical femininists were still sadly homophobic - sidelining lesbian and bisexual women from the movement. The movement was failing to acknowledge the sexism of "stereotyping mannish man-hating lesbians" and distanced themselves from lesbians, they also had issues with addressing the other sexuality specific forms of misogyny such as corrective rape. A movement called The Lavender Menace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavender_Menace rose to confront this - they were very influential.

Case C: When it comes to gender stereotypes and the unique face of oppression each woman faces, sometimes race can alter how a woman is viewed. White women are stereotyped as chatty, feminine, demure, feminine. Black women are stereotyped as masculine, loud, aggressive, sexual. Asian women are stereotyped to be submissive, serving, quiet, exotic etc. These are all sexist stereotypes, and affect the groups differently.

Feminism gets called "white" when it only really tailors to the needs of white women. When white feminists banded up with women of color sometimes they would mess up - when challenging stereotypes that applied to them they would assume (often by ignorance) that what works for them must also work for others. For example, when white feminist or even black male authors made "positive" black female characters who were strong, independent, a bit aggressive/assertive, or sexual (things that white women fought to be seen as) - they did not realize they were furthering damage by solidifying a black stereotype that was harming black women from being seen as multi-faceted and even vulnerable human beings and aiding in their dehumanisation.

A lot of black women were attempting to find other modes of expressions where they could be seen as more rounded individuals, emotional, even feminine or demure if they wanted. A lot of them struggle with being seen as sex objects not worthy of a serious romantic relationship, a lot felt that even childhood and womanhood was taken from them very early on. The unique ways that colorism affected women more than men, etc. White feminists can not relate to such matters, thus a space needed to be made to talk about it.

Black women often felt that neither black men or white women understood that they felt confined to a small box of expressions - where white feminists embraced both masculinity and femininity in the cultural revolution, black women often felt they were stuck in the black strong female stereotype role which entrapped them in an epidemic of mental health issues. A lot of women of color in general felt they had to choose between their racial identity vs their womanhood which caused a lot of issues.

In short, intersectionality isn't, and shouldn't be (since there is a general cultural confusion even from intersectionalists) about calling this person a Karen, or culture wars. It's about acknowledging our differences, knowing how sexism has many forms based on culture and identity and acting on them. I know there's a lot of BS going around with white libfems calling other people "white" as an insult even with matters that don't even have to do with race, but that's just libfems being stupid with their identity politics bastardization. The concept of intersectionality is a good and positive one that all feminists should adopt and I am sorry they ruined the idea of it for you.

voi_che_sapete · 2020-07-23T02:38:32+00:00

I would like to express a fuckton of dismay at this and point out that is sanctimonious white women calling out other white women using the 'intersectionality' concept the vast majority of the time. It's not black women's fault intersectionality (which is a very useful, very specific concept that they innovated) has been used to tokenize their perspective and ratify libfem bullshit for white women and TRAs.

Badmammajamma · 2020-07-22T04:42:58+00:00

I think the specific problem of white women and feminism may not apply to your cultural experience. In the US it’s a very big deal. Black women were systematically excluded from the US suffragette movement, for example.

Feminism is for women, and we would be ridiculous to conclude that the experiences that impact women of different races or cultures are not relevant. They are relevant. There’s billions of women in this world who are not white, and their voices should be heard and we should make space for that. No one is free unless we all are.

coffeedrinker · 2020-07-22T04:58:23+00:00

What? This post is so nonsensical. Non-intersectional feminism ignores the plight of poor women, WoC, queer women, etc. This was a major criticism of 1st and 2nd wave feminisms - why do you think such a term was needed in the first place? you can criticize lib feminism, but don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Maeven · 2020-07-22T06:06:12+00:00

I don't like the attacks on issues that are considered white. Primarily because, even if we are white and aren't affected by racism, we are affected by sexism and shouldn't be attacked for having our own unique issues. I can sympathize with black women who experience sexism differently and still advocate for the ways sexism affects me. I can have uniquely american-centric problems and there's nothing wrong with that any more than Korean feminists who focus and discuss uniquely Korean problems.

I'd rather we not tear each other down. Just recognize that different people have different needs and leave it at that.

luckystar · 2020-07-22T01:37:11+00:00

It's the "all lives matter" of feminism.

Liz-B-Anne · 2020-07-24T06:54:11+00:00

We can stand united while still honoring our differences & asking for empathy. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I'm white & American but OP's language sounds like how men talk down to Western women when they claim we "have it good" compared to women in developing nations & say we shouldn't be bitching/don't need feminism. It's not the 'Oppression Olympics' for Women of Color to point out the ways in which they're struggling beyond simply being female. As long as they're doing so in a way that's respectful of the humanity of this group, they should feel comfortable speaking on those issues here just as freely as any white woman complains about being called a "Karen" or whatever. Because let me tell you, that's annoying at worst compared to what minorities go through in this country (and probably elsewhere).

moody_ape · 2020-07-24T19:27:36+00:00

i think intersectionality can be a great tool of analysis and it can even unite feminists if used correctly. the one problem i have with intersectionality is something that i think is more related to how people apply the theory than the theory itself. when i was a newbie to feminism i was part of an intersectional feminist collective at college. i remember countless times when certain women in the group simply were not allowed to disagree with anything that other certain women said. i'll give you 2 examples.

i have always been skinny and i know it's a good thing considering the beauty standards for women. however, i think i'm way too skinny and would like to have more curves. after all, being skinny doesn't necessarily = being 100% happy with my appearance. when i tried talking about this insecurity with my feminist peers, they called me names and said i was complaining about non-existing "skinny-phobia" and that fat women were the ones that had to deal with insecurities about their weight because "tumblr is full of skinny girls showing off their bones". i never mentioned any "phobias". i just wanted to talk about how i felt about my body.
on another occasion, i was talking with two black friends of mine (also part of the feminist collective) about a music video by a white singer. the video was a cover of "survivor", by destiny's child, and featured women from different races, sizes, ages and sexual orientations - they were all fans who volunteered, not hired models or anything. it was pretty much a feminist move from that singer. she had just left an asshole of a boyfriend and she even donated all the money from the video to a feminist NGO that helped vulnerable women. at some point in the video, the women were handed a red lipstick and they did whatever they wanted with it. some used it normally, other wrote "dyke" in their chest, others "ate" it and many painted their whole faces instead of using it to look "beautiful". my friends trashed this singer soooo much! they said she was a white bitch who was tokenizing black women, appropriating music from black women and wearing red lipstick, which according to them is the utmost representation of femininity. they also said things like "she's upper class, she knows nothing about being a survivor! her boyfriend is white trash" etc. on top of that they were really angry at white women at that particular moment because of some statistics about how black women were 10% more likely than white women to be killed. and of course they used it against the singer (like wtf?) i hadn't seen the video when they trashed it to me. when i got home, i saw it and loved it. so i wrote a post on my facebook saying i thought maybe they were wrong on their judgement and explained why. i did this politely because i didn't want to attack them - they were my friends after all - and i didn't even mention any names, just said "i had a converstaion with some friends about this music video and i disagree". i just wanted them to think about that issue. their response? "you're silencing us"

this is the sort of thing i hated about being part of an intersectional feminist collective. i was not allowed to disagree. i had to say "amem" to everything all the time because i'm white/skinny and i have it better. i couldn't question anything, i couldn't even ask questions because "no one has the obligation to explain anything to you". i eventually got sick and tired of that group and left after another "shut up and agree" discussion involving cultural appropriation.

although i've had a bad experience with that particular collective, i still think discussing various issues regarding the differencies in material reality of different groups of women is very important and useful. however i also think people need to chill the f out. humans can't change their minds after reading some comments on facebook. it takes time and a lot of reflection.

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