all 63 comments

[–][deleted] 65 insightful - 2 fun65 insightful - 1 fun66 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

There isn't much we can do that I can see so far. But I think we need to be aware of all the behind the scene problems that is affecting our freedom to speak and freedom to associate.

This is probably the climate we'll be slogging through for some time.

So -- Everyone --

Secure your online identity if you haven't done!

Web browsers -- consider non-tracking browsers like Duck Duck Go and Tor

Email -- use secure encrypted email services like Proton Mail for all online GC/RadFem activity

Use VPN if it makes sense for you

If you want to blog, here's how to do so anonymously: https://uglyduck.ca/blog-anonymously/

If working with a cloud server, ensure it has good DDOS protection and premium security services

If relying on revenue streams for support, have a Plan B service in place

Keep air gaps between all things GC/RadFem and the entirety of your other online activity to the extent possible

They're not getting rid of us. We're smart, we're strong, and The Peakening is happening -- whether they like it or not.

[–]Spikygrasspod 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Hello! I am a books-and-staring-out-the-window-at-birds-gendered-person who doesn't understand the internet. What is an 'air gap'? Is safari safe? Is firefox better? What can people know about me if I visit this site on a laptop without sharing my email? What if I read forbidden feminist works on medium, quillette, unherd, 4W and feminist current? What is VPN and do I need it? What is a cloud server and do I have one? Do they already know who I am if I used my email for reddit?

I know that's a lot of questions. Thank you in advance for any and all answers.

[–]endthewoo 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What is an 'air gap'?

it is like siloing. Completely different online IDs for GC. So if you are "Jane Smith" and work in a local nursing home, and go rock climbing as a hobby, and write online about any of these in connection with your real name or job or whereabouts - don't mix any of that with your GC/reddit/saidit ID. Use different emails, phone number (if reqd) for sign ins, different payment methods and so on. Some go as far a different machines, but different IPs will do (see VPN)

What is VPN and do I need it?

when you visit any site it will know the IP address (you can look this up and see for yourself, search "what's my IP"). This could be used to find you. A VPN hides this behind an IP of its own

https://uk.pcmag.com/encryption/4328/the-best-free-vpns

What is a cloud server and do I have one?

you probably dont have one

Do they already know who I am if I used my email for reddit?

is your email janesmith[at]yourplaceofwork.com ? Otherwise probably not

[–]Spikygrasspod 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you!

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I am a books-and-staring-out-the-window-at-birds-gendered-person who doesn't understand the internet.

I'm just loving this. 😄

The cloud server here applies to the site itself (SaidIt), they can have different strengths of DDOS protection and security packages. SaidIt actually weathered the attack pretty well.

[–]throwawayanylogic 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I just commented on the general thread about the DDOS attack here that I've been dealing with a targeted attack against my personal social media and other online accounts since this weekend. Out of nowhere, hadn't downloaded any new apps or done anything new, but now I'm paranoid it might be thanks to having been a former member and (very occasional) commenter at gendercritical, lgbdropthet, and some other banned subs.

Could be just a weird coincidence but right now I'm damned paranoid. Along with the other advice above, be sure all your passwords are unique and hard to guess, turn on 2-factor authentication, and monitor your credit carefully.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

That really sucks, I'm sorry you're dealing with that. ❤️

And yes, strong and unique passwords, watch your financial records, all the things!

[–]throwawayanylogic 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you, it's quite scary and stressful. They actually did get in my Facebook account and tagged a bunch of my friends on a weird post I deleted as soon as I saw it (but none of my friends bothered to message/ask me about it despite commenting on it as being a weird post for me to make? I didn't log in to FB all day to see it because I was busy trying to figure out what was going on with my Amazon and eBay accounts.) Every time I think I've got everything locked down with a new password I get an email about another account they're trying to get into. I'm not the type of person to fall for phishing emails/scams or download/torrent from shady sites, so I can't help but be struck by the weirdness of it - and the weird timing with everything else going on.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, it's ruthless. I'd be very surprised if it weren't connected to Reddit, compromised Reddit employees, or whatever puppet master has their hand up the butt of the whole thing (sorry for the image). If they find one thread of an online identifier they can pull to cause disruption and distress, they'll pull it.

[–]throwawayanylogic 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

One of the accounts they tried to get into was one of my reddit ids, though not the one I'd used on GC and LGBDTT.

[–]motionlessoracle 51 insightful - 3 fun51 insightful - 2 fun52 insightful - 3 fun -  (19 children)

The second we moved to saidit, I wondered how good their DDoS protection was. I figured they'd be getting some crap thrown at them. Cloudflare has been pretty good at mitigating the attacks so far, though.

Now is the time to donate massively to saidit. Donate before it becomes difficult to do so. Thank them for giving us space. GC on Reddit was one of the subs that bought the most gold per user. Let's continue the tradition here.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 30 insightful - 2 fun30 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I just checked out the Saidit Patreon page. It only has 21 patrons. Looks like magnora7's target goal is $350/mo and right now at Patreon he reached $206. He does accept cryptocurrency so maybe that supplements his goal. Still it's pretty bad there are only 21 patrons. Part of me wish there's a way to donate without also contributing to help racists sounding off. But then this place is also serving free speech and free association, a cause I deeply believe in, not to mention it's where this sub is right now. Definitely living in crazytown right now.

[–]motionlessoracle 36 insightful - 3 fun36 insightful - 2 fun37 insightful - 3 fun -  (15 children)

Part of me wish there's a way to donate without also contributing to help racists sounding off.

I'm not trying to attack you or make you mad, but I wonder if you've thought about the implications of a platform that bans people who say things you consider racist? How is that in any way different than a platform that bans people for saying things that men don't like?

Free speech really means anyone can say whatever they like as long as it isn't a crime. That is either valuable to you or it isn't. As soon as you allow somebody to decide which controversial ideas it is okay to have, you give one group power over others.

[–]beholdyourheart 24 insightful - 2 fun24 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

There's a big difference between wanting to get a group banned and not wanting to support them monetarily. I would never, ever support a platform that hosts neo-nazis with my own money, because I feel very strongly about anti-racism and don't want to give my funds to a racist/anti-semitic platform. Same way I wouldn't give Reddit money because of their misogyny.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I agree with you generally. However, I really hate it today how the Outrage Machine keeps threatening boycotts to force companies to toe their line. That's very different from charitable donations and giving or not giving to a cause. Threatening boycotts today is another form of cancel culture and I really hate it because nowadays it's usually about something stupid, superficial, and cosmetic, that doesn't even make any real difference.

[–]beholdyourheart 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah I can understand that. I think personal boycotts based on ideals are fine but the whole group outrage of 'if you don't boycott X company you're evil and needed to be cancelled' thing is ridiculous. But for me, in terms of paying to support a website, I'd rather pay to support GC making our own site so I could be confident that my money is supporting my own ideals. Since cancel culture is inherently a group concept, I don't think individuals making their own choices on who they want to support is the same thing.

[–]motionlessoracle 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Since cancel culture is inherently a group concept, I don't think individuals making their own choices on who they want to support is the same thing.

Cancel culture is millions of individuals who do not know how to cope with people they dislike, all making individual choices to harass, boycott, doxx, petition, and write letters.

I mean, I agree that choosing not to give money is different from a boycott. However, using this site is like being given a free lunch, and then declaring you don't want to leave a tip for the server because free lunches were also given to racists.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think personal boycotts based on ideals are fine but the whole group outrage of 'if you don't boycott X company you're evil and needed to be cancelled' thing is ridiculous.

Cancel culture is millions of individuals who do not know how to cope with people they dislike, all making individual choices to harass, boycott, doxx, petition, and write letters.

I think you're both correct. On the one hand personal boycotts as a personal choice is not actually cancel culture. OTOH, these personal choices become a collective now because of fucking Twitter. Twitter continuously create outrages to rally a mob for this or that. So while the choices are personal, normally in the past these choices wouldn't have been made in the first place. Once the mob gets loud enough, all the corporations fold and bend at the knee.

Of course in a free society people should be able to boycott companies by their personal choices. In a sane world, boycotts are for when a company is dumping toxic chemicals into the river. In a world where Twitter is the arbiter of morality, companies get threats of boycott when a lowly hourly employee at one store out of the company's 500 stores nationwide does or say something that a shrill group of people on Twitter decides is offensive. Or worse, what the one lowly employee did or said is taken totally out of context or misconstrued. It's ridiculous. It's also ridiculous when the mob threatens boycott if the head of a company voices support for the "wrong" party or politician. Why should hundreds of workers and employees who are just working to feed their families suddenly have their livelihoods threatened because I disagree with their CEO's politics? 99% of the time when people take jobs, they have no clue about the top management's politics. Most will never even meet the executive management. Should people only take jobs now if the entire company's management have "correct" views and opinions? What about people who live in places where the company is the largest jobs provider in the area? The whole thing is insane and out of hand.

[–]motionlessoracle 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Well, think of it this way. Monetary support isn't paying magnora7's rent. It's simply the cost to have a site like this online that is currently deflecting over a million hostile connections roughly every ten minutes while we get to be blissfully unaware.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Reddit was a money making enterprise with ads, so most people could easily decide not to give them more money and still sleep at night. This site is, as far as I can tell, a lot of work and zero financial gain. If it starts costing too much out of pocket to repel the attacks, it will go offline, and then we won't have anywhere to speak again.

That's the point of the DDoS attacks. We can fight back by making sure magnora7 has the funds necessary to absorb the cost of protecting our right to free speech. You're not protecting free speech if you're only willing to protect speech you agree with.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't disagree. I was thinking yesterday how even 5 years ago I saw quite a bit of pushback with people repeating the famous quote "I don't agree with what you said, but I'll defend to death your right to say it". I've noticed these last 3 years no one really say that anymore. Probably because it's proven to fall on deaf ears. Really sad. OTOH, if one is to say "I'll defend to death your right to say it", I guess $5/mo donation to Patreon, comparing to death, isn't all that much to give.

[–]motionlessoracle 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was thinking yesterday how even 5 years ago I saw quite a bit of pushback with people repeating the famous quote "I don't agree with what you said, but I'll defend to death your right to say it". I've noticed these last 3 years no one really say that anymore.

This is so true and so sad. You're right. I never see those sentiments anymore. I still believe them.

[–]Overdrive 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You should give to magnora7.

It's not like your money would be directly going to a racist's pockets.

Do you pay taxes?

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No offense taken. However, I don't think that withholding donation is equivalent to me having power to disallow whose idea is ok or deny anyone power. Certainly donations from any source would help. But whether I'm a donor or not, I personally have no power one way or another to allow or disallow anyone on this platform. Moreover, no one is even required to ever make donation of any kind, even for causes or organizations they value. The fact that there are only 21 patrons to this site reflects that. Thousands of people are here right now, rent free. I don't think I should be singled out to be someone who must overcome something I'm not comfortable with to give financial support. How I or anyone decide to give donations should be entirely up to the person doing the giving. If it was a tax, a law, or an issue of business boycott, that'd be another matter IMO.

ETA: Notwithstanding what I said here, I'm glad to see your call for everyone to help contribute. Magnora7 appears to be a very reasonable person giving a lot to try to do something good. I think he can really use as much support a he can get.

[–]motionlessoracle 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm glad no offense was taken, because none was intended.

I'm not singling you out. I think everyone who is currently using this site needs to think very carefully about what free speech sometimes costs.

We've been spoiled for years by "free" internet services that were only free because we were what was being sold. Reddit, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Google, TikTok are all using you to make money. They are willing to violate your privacy quite extremely, doxx you behind the scenes, sell that data to the highest bidder, then ban you if you become inconvenient.

Saidit has no ads and doesn't sell user data, so the costs are out of pocket for magnora7. Donations are the only way this site will stay online if it needs to spend $$$ repelling DDoS attacks. It's understood that not everyone can or will donate. The point I am making is that we cannot think of saidit in the same way we think of other social media. We cannot treat this site like a free lunch.

[–]endthewoo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Absolutist "free speech" is bullshit. By not censoring the trolls, ddosers, bullies, liars, scammers, defamers you are in effect censoring everyone else. The mods/admins are already making a choice as to who gets censored (whether they admit it or not). You allow the bad actors then effectively by omission you censor many more of the good ones.

[–]motionlessoracle 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There's a tendency on the left (and perhaps in other groups, but I'm a member of the left so I see it more clearly) to say: this is a problem, I've thought of one solution, therefore it is the solution. Inevitably, the solution is the most obvious, which tells you something about the group proposing it. To the left, censoring speech is the first tool they grab. It's a clumsy tool, with splinters in the handle and a distressing tendency to injure both the user and innocent bystanders, but it vaguely gets the job done in the same way that a wrench can be used as a hammer.

There are alternative solutions that are far less chilling. For instance, permitting users to block other users so they never see their content puts control in the hands of individual users. The objectionable speech remains, but only for those who wish to see it, thus this option imposes no worldview on anyone. Everyone is free to cultivate their own bubble. Nobody has control over anyone else's bubble.

u/magnora7 indicated that this feature is desired and anyone who wants to take a crack at it can check out the github repository: https://github.com/libertysoft3/saidit

Another option would be to display subs and comments in a filtered way, by automatically collapsing those from users with low karma/recent account creation and hiding their posts from the /s/all feed. The comments/posts would still be visible to those who chose to look at them, but the default level of engagement with them would be low.

When trying to increase the signal to noise ratio, you can boost the signal or reduce the noise. Both approaches have limitations. Anyone who has spent time processing signals/data can tell you that removing noise (rather than preventing it from occurring) inevitably changes the signal as well. It distorts it.

[–]endthewoo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm having this convo in two sub-threads here so excuse the cut and paste:

You can't have free speech without space for everyone to speak. And to create space for everyone to speak you need rules and boundaries otherwise biggest-bully-troll wins and almost everyone else is denied their speech. All the evidence - seeing how things play out in practice every single time - tells us that.

Fully open debate is a fantasy, won't ever work. Even pple who claim to be for total free speech recognise that implicitly even though they pretend otherwise (for whatever reason).

Example: you set up a sub to discuss woodworking, or organise a talk on "new woodworking techniques". By its very nature that's already constrained and boundaried, and you (or FS absolutists) probably wouldn't advocate for others to go into that space en-masse and start screaming about some entirely different topic, or posting death threats, or libel or conspiracies. You'd say let everyone who is interested in woodworking come and share their ideas, some might be good ideas, some might not - have a discussion, counter points - but you'd recognise that if a screaming mob comes in to smash the place up then saying you can't evict them bcs "censorship" makes a nonsense of how discussion, learning, and testing of ideas functions.

So, why is it that for some spaces, some topics, those boundaries are reframed as "censorship" ? Terms of debate is a thing, as is freedom of assembly, and again, it's interesting who is and isn't allowed to assemble and set their own boundaries and terms.

[–]motionlessoracle 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm having this convo in two sub-threads here so excuse the cut and paste

That's fine, I appreciate the conversation.

So, why is it that for some spaces, some topics, those boundaries are reframed as "censorship" ? Terms of debate is a thing, as is freedom of assembly, and again, it's interesting who is and isn't allowed to assemble and set their own boundaries and terms.

Now that I see more of what you're trying to say, I think I agree with you.

I think of Saidit as an analogue of the US government. The government in the USA cannot silence your speech, except in a few fringe cases. That is absolute freedom of speech. The US government protects your right to say what you want to say and associate with whoever you wish. Its role is protective, only. Otherwise, it leaves you alone.

I think of the subs as like states or companies. The states in the US can absolutely create more legislation, as can the counties and cities. Companies can hire or fire you for almost any reason or no reason. Companies can create codes of conduct for employees. A sub, to me, is a voluntary association. Since anyone can make a sub, having a sub that restricts speech to a certain topic or tone is not necessarily damaging. Those who disagree can easily make their own sub and discuss there. I'm on the more liberal side of politics, so I think that speech should be tolerated to the maximum degree possible, but I agree that people talking about automotive repair on a woodworking sub should be directly encouraged to move the conversation elsewhere.

Within the context of the US federal government, which extends to everything the federal government supports (like public universities), certain boundaries infringe on free speech rights and are censorship. Within the context of private property, like a corporation, more boundaries are permitted. If people on saidit want to create black people only subs, or white people only subs, I think those should be permitted. If the sub moderators want to ban everyone who isn't black (or white), I also think that should be permitted.

[–]dazedandsubdued 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

that's a good point about considering supporting saidit on patreon. i also think there are ways to help saidit without spending money. specifically, contributing to conversations in other non-gender critical/lgb subs...voicing disagreements is a good start, making posts is even better i think (although i haven't done this yet).

i know people's tolerance for being in subs with racists and conspiracy theorists will vary, but saidit is less likely to grow if it is only these people taking up room on the front page of this website with their nonsense. their anti-semitism and "blm = terrorist group" kooky type bullshit is certainly a turnoff for most people who are considering this website. i'd like to see this website grow and be one that is actually friendly to women, unlike reddit. no one is obligated to do anything of course, but just some thoughts!

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same here, I knew we'd be dragging attention in our wake. So far so good.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 37 insightful - 4 fun37 insightful - 3 fun38 insightful - 4 fun -  (11 children)

These people have nothing better to do, do they?

[–][deleted] 55 insightful - 5 fun55 insightful - 4 fun56 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

If TRAs are involved, then probably not. Behold Narcissistic Rage in Action.

[–]motionlessoracle 31 insightful - 15 fun31 insightful - 14 fun32 insightful - 15 fun -  (2 children)

TRA reading the above post: Hey, I'm not a narcissist!

TRA on social media: Hey! Mean old TERFs are saying I'm a narcissist and I'm totally not, am I? posts a selfie and a poll

[–][deleted] 19 insightful - 9 fun19 insightful - 8 fun20 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

Poll results: "Not a narcissist! Silence all dissenters." 😄

[–]BigMommyMilkers 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's amazing how many average to unattractive transwomen who post their selfies think they're a supermodel

[–]IridescentAnaconda 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I personally think it's more coordinated than simply narcissistic rage.

In my view (which is admittedly leaning slightly toward the "deplorable" side and partially informed by what others might consider "conspiracy theory") TRAs are merely useful idiots. The larger agenda is to greatly limit the ability to discuss opinions that range outside of a very narrow Overton window.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Entirely possible.

[–]11mile_house 23 insightful - 13 fun23 insightful - 12 fun24 insightful - 13 fun -  (1 child)

They have a lot of extra time since no one will date them.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Seriously. One of the biggest complaint on tech centric social media is that there aren’t any women to date or that no one will date them.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 4 fun17 insightful - 3 fun18 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

No. They probably cashed out of their tech jobs, sitting on millions and are now trolling for free. We might have to go back to the days of physical tea parties to fight for our rights.

[–]11mile_house 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, that sounds nice.

[–]PassionateIntensity 28 insightful - 4 fun28 insightful - 3 fun29 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Yep. There was a DDOS attack while I was reading LGBDropTheT Friday or Saturday, before this one. I wondered if it was TRA psychos. They're insane and they have no lives. They won't stop.

[–][deleted] 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I debated brining this up because it's embarrassing. Last week I made the mistake in messaging an absolute assbasket that was banned from here. Instead of just trusting mods to recognize and shut down stupid shit, I brought out my little flag of concern over possible censorship. In my noseyness, I asked them why they stumbled here and why they got banned. That was evidently a huge mistake, and they thought I was gloating about the ban. Anyhow, they posted an image of the PM and basically smeared my username for all of saidit to see along with a nearly comical meltdown complaining about GC. I put up a link to the rest of the PM on his post, because if I'm going down I will damn well be understood while I do it. Should I be concerned about that being there with all of these attacks though?

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you reasonably comfortable about your overall online security wrt your username? If so, I wouldn't sweat it. There's no way to prevent our posts here being "outed" by the determined.

[–]Literallyawoman 21 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 2 fun22 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You can’t change reality and you can’t delete real life. At the end of the day they can’t break people down offline to date or fuck them or even let these narcissistic red-flag waving social outcasts into their lives as friends. It’s important to keep having real life conversations because so many younger people and women are prone to allowing shitty behavior towards them in the name of looking open-minded. Their rights end where our bodies begin!

[–]tuesday 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I generally skip it because there are some seriously crazy antisemitic and racist posts there,

In the very upper left hand corner of your screen, click "edit my subs". Then just unsubscribe from any subs you don't want appearing on your front page.

[–]writerlylesbian 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's a long tradition of trying to take down feminist sites, particularly radical feminist sites, via DDOS attacks. I think it likely the attacks were initiated at least in part because GC and other similar groups (like the LGB groups) migrated here.

[–]11mile_house 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are so desperate to stop us from talking because they know it’s peaking people.

[–]RoundFork 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Without taking down the cultural attack posts, why not give it a tag? or mods add a disclaimer before the content, saying that it’s a suspected attack and users should proceed with caution. Hoo boi, I can’t believe the deep web needs this much protecting...

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

IDK if there's any tag function on this site. The site admin plus some old users had been telling everyone ad nauseum that the best way to stop this is to post more other interesting stuff, like dog pictures and hobbies and the likes, so to make this place a platform of diverse interests and the cultural attack posts and racists posts would be drowned out. Somehow it's been futile.

For us the best thing would be that when we see lunatic extremist posts, do not engage. Just move on. If they're cultural attack posts, then we're adding to the problem and potentially helping to deplatform ourselves. If they're real extremists, then it's a waste of our time to talk to them anyway.

[–]WrongToy 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Mangora has said on all that we're abiding by the rules so leave us alone.

That's good enough for me.

Look, I prefer birds as pets, but I'm not about to spam the whole page with pictures of cute chickens or the eggs they lay. That is not the purpose of us being here.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True. I think most GC subs are only here for this sub and maybe some sister subs. I was talking more about the discussions of the other users of Saidit. They've been telling those new users--the ones who are here for free speech--to make the discussions on the platform more diverse in subjects.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

These are people like the mods from Reddit. Other people in non GC subs said they’d post objectionable material in fake accounts to subs in order to take them down, and/or post child p0rn to other subs to “justify” taking them down

[–]quickbeam 9 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

LOL - I thought that "white supremacist from Iran" who I questioned on their pro-censorship views seemed kind of fishy.

[–]1donteven 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The search function seems to be currently broken. I tried searching for existing subs and nothing showed up. It was still working ~12 hours ago.

[–]catoboros 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Patreon censors. Many prominent culture warriors switched to SubscribeStar after being banned from Patreon for their views (even views expressed on other platforms), often under pressure from Visa/Mastercard, who were under pressure from Sleeping Giants. Many others switched in protest against Patreon's bans.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

false flags aren't new, but yeah, definitely a thing.

[–]endthewoo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

For the site, there is no way to win and no solution, because if they shut down the offending posts, they would become a site that censor, and loses its fundamental appeal.

And this is why absolutist "free speech" is bullshit. By not censoring the trolls, ddosers, bullies, liars, scammers, defamers you are in effect censoring everyone else. The mods/admins are already making a choice as to who gets censored (whether they admit it or not). You allow the bad actors then effectively by omission you censor many more of the good ones.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Problem is who is the authority to decide which ones are trolls, bullies, liars, etc? Reddit apparently decided the WE are the trolls, bullied and liars. Because no one can truly be a just arbiter, the best option is still to have open platform free for all so someone can counter argue. Magnora7 has set this place up to try to avoid right wing extremist takeover. (ie no downvote, no ads, the pyramid of debate) Maybe his model can be further perfected?

[–]endthewoo 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You can't have free speech without space for everyone to speak. And to create space for everyone to speak you need rules and boundaries otherwise biggest-bully-troll wins and almost everyone else is denied their speech. All the evidence - seeing how things play out in practice every single time - tells us that.

Fully open debate is a fantasy, won't ever work. Even pple who claim to be for total free speech recognise that implicitly even though they pretend otherwise (for whatever reason).

Example: you set up a sub to discuss woodworking, or organise a talk on "new woodworking techniques". By its very nature that's already constrained and boundaried, and you (or FS absolutists) probably wouldn't advocate for others to go into that space en-masse and start screaming about some entirely different topic, or posting death threats, or libel or conspiracies. You'd say let everyone who is interested in woodworking come and share their ideas, some might be good ideas, some might not - have a discussion, counter points - but you'd recognise that if a screaming mob comes in to smash the place up then saying you can't evict them bcs "censorship" makes a nonsense of how discussion, learning, and testing of ideas functions.

So, why is it that for some spaces, some topics, those boundaries are reframed as "censorship" ? Terms of debate is a thing, as is freedom of assembly, and again, it's interesting who is and isn't allowed to assemble and set their own boundaries and terms.

[–]Lilith_Fair[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What you said still doesn't answer the question of who sets the rules? Who sets the boundaries? How far the boundaries are acceptable?

You said there can be no free speech for everyone without some form of censorship, which you describe as rules and boundaries, or else the bullies and trolls take over. From what I'm seeing though, the bullies and trolls have succeeded actually in places like Reddit, Twitter, etc that did exactly what you said. Here on saidit, there are some seriously crazy antisemitic and racist posts, but TBH I don't find them bullying. I find them disgusting and abhorrent for sure, but none of these loons did anything to shut down anyone who disagree. Crazy enough they actually want to debate people. If you check out what they posted here, you'll find they want to engage you in a conversation. If anyone has too much time and want to talk to them for kicks, they can. It'd probably be better time spent going to the insane asylum and talk to someone there. Bottom line is, none of them (At least the crazy ones on this site) have even remotely tried to shame people who disagree with them, call them evil, tried to destroy the livelihood of people they disagree with, or ostracize them openly. None of them had brigaded us or anyone else. They're many horrible things for the views they hold, but they in fact are not bullies as far as on this site is concerned. If other people won't join the site, it's not because these loons are bullying them out. It's simply because they can't stomach seeing such horrible speech.

As for trolls, you can deal with them like trolls on any site. Ignore them. If everyone ignore them, they'll stop. (unless it's a coordinated False Flag cultural attack).

So as regard to this site, what you're really saying is that the users with horrible views should be somewhat censored so that more other people with more correct views can come and speak. What that sounds like is that the bullying is actually to be done on people with wrong views, not the other way around. Let's stop the loons from talking so better people can come and take up more space.

Look, I have the same concerns as you. I don't know the solution either. But there are fallacies in the options you suggested. Now that I've been on this site for a few weeks, what I realized is that there are just loons with no power sprouting nonsense. They dominate the front page because no one is starting and engaging in conversations on other topics. And there are options for rules and boundaries because we have utilized those to exclude them specifically. Those rules are what keep us off the front page. Otherwise, just check the upvote numbers and long strings of arguments. I guarantee you our posts here would be flooding the front page and this site would look like a GC site.

Edit: typo

[–]its1342 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This isn’t new it’s always been an issue for saidit, or at least long before we got here.