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[–]snub-nosedmonkey 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Wouldn't that imply that gender dysphoria doesn't exist? While I'm inclined to believe your explanations in some cases, there is plenty of evidence that gender dysphoria is a genuine mental condition.

[–]MarkTwainiac 30 insightful - 3 fun30 insightful - 2 fun31 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

It's not either or. In males, AGP is the most common source/cause of "gender dysphoria."

Blanchard, 1989: "the major types of non-homosexual gender dysphoria (in males) constitute variant forms of one underlying disorder, which may be characterized as autogynephilic gender dysphoria."

Blanchard and other sexologists say that males with AGP, particularly AGP focused on female sexual anatomy and female sexual functions (menstruation, pregnancy, lactation, breastfeeding, etc) and what they believe to be female sexual behaviors (submissiveness, getting fucked) actually have the most intense form of "gender dysphoria."

[–]snub-nosedmonkey 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Can you cite your sources that "AGP is the most common source/cause of "gender dysphoria"? I'm not arguing against it, but I see this claim being made often and it's never backed up by any reputable sources.

Blanchard's hypothesis is as the name suggests; a hypothesis. It's intellectually dishonest at this stage to talk about it as if it's an established theory, even if it may end up being one. As this 2016 review into transgender brain science discusses, the hypothesis is still largely untested and more studies are needed: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We had r/itsafetish to prove that hypothesis correct, but now it's gone... You can't do any scientific research on this in the current day and age.

[–]tuesday 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

just happened across this website and thought of you. Hope this helps

https://culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2013/04/27/but-theres-no-such-thing-as-autogynephilia-phone-sex-the-male-gaze-and-how-blanchard-and-trans-activists-both-get-it-wrong/

Btw... was thinking about how you were so persistent that gc people must provide research to prove every single thing we say. I'm wondering if you are so persistent and insistent about being given research when a trans person is describing how biological sex is not real?

[–]snub-nosedmonkey 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the link, I read it but I was looking for evidence from surveys or scientific studies rather than anecdotal evidence. Also to be clear, I accept that some straight MtF’s have ‘autogynephilia’, but having done some more reading the evidence disputes the claim that all straight MtF’s have autogynephilia. This is what I was originally questioning. I’m a scientist by trade so I also ask anyone making surprising claims for evidence. Anyone denying biological sex is just ignorant and I’m firmly against extremist TRA’s who try and invade women only spaces and promote harmful ideology. I’m not sure why you assumed I would be on their side.

Any conclusions gained from transgender studies are obviously contentious, and we need more data to make firm conclusions at present. As a sidenote, I’m also wary of salience bias when it comes to TRAS’s online, because we all tend to notice the loudest, most surreal and most dangerous behaviours and ideas coming from them and this can distort our perception of transgender people in general. I totally understand how spending time on Reddit, Saidit and Twitter etc. can make it seem like the world is full of men pretending to be females for nefarious reasons, but the reality is this is very rare.

Having done some more research, Blanchard’s hypothesis (the idea that all transwomen are either straight men who get turned on by the idea themselves as women, or gay men) doesn’t generally appear to be supported by the scientific literature. There are heaps of valid criticisms of aspects of the hypothesis and studies which refute it [1]. The main rebuttal is the idea that all straight MtF’s experience autogynephilia. While Blanchard’s own studies found that the majority of straight MtF’s experience autogynephilia, they also found that a substantial minority didn’t experience it, directly contradicting the central premise of the hypothesis. Other studies have similar findings (see links in [1]).

There are also problems with how ‘autogynephilia’ (which remember is a term coined by Blanchard) is categorised. For example, if a subject has ever reported, for example, sexual arousal whilst putting on women’s clothing, they might be classed as having autogynephilia, despite these feelings not necessarily being a consistent aspect of their sexuality. One obvious criticism I share is that his earlier research didn’t include controls to assess levels of autogynephilia amongst non-trans people. For example, the majority of straight men might also exhibit some autogynephilic tendencies according to Blanchard’s criteria, but as far as I’m aware we just don’t know. Also, the idea that autogynephilia is exclusive to males is challenged by a study that found that found over 90% of (biological) women experienced autogynephilia (using Blanchard’s criteria).[2]

[1] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/00918369.2010.486241 [2] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26660017_Autogynephilia_in_Women

[–]tuesday 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

gender critical people keep saying it because it tends to reflect the experience of anybody who has ever known more than one transwoman. AGP is unfortunately really common.

It seems to describe most of the transwomen i know... Most people start out very accepting and sympathetic to transpeople, which lasts until they get to know a few. Trans are their own worst enemy.

[–]jet199 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

Gender dysphoria just means you are unhappy with your gender.

It's not some magic label which makes you real trans.

AGP, internalised homophobia, social contagion, these things all create real gender dysphoria.

Most women have probably experienced gender dysphoria growing up at some point.

[–]whateverneverpine 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No what I experienced growing up was the impact of sexism. I had sexism "dysphoria." "Gender dysphoria" is victim blaming and obscuring cause and effect.

[–]jet199 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Right, that's great for you but playing with words and meaning isn't going to help the wider debate right now.

[–]whateverneverpine 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not "playing with words." I don't believe "most women" have "probably experienced gender dysphoria." I believe they've experienced the impact of sexism. We don't say that people suffer "racial dysphoria" due to the ways racism impacted them. Language matters. I think gender dysphoria is a dumpster fire where insight into one's one situation goes to die.

[–]snub-nosedmonkey 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender dysphoria just means you are unhappy with your gender.

It's not simply being unhappy with your gender, it's usually defined as emotional discomfort because of a mismatch between your sex and gender identity. It's a psychological disorder, and is completely different to being gender non-conforming. I think a lot of people who label themselves as transgender are just gender non-conforming, which is different to having a gender dysphoria.

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

[–]OrneryStruggle 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

AGP is a form of "gender dysphoria", it's just not the innocent form of "dysphoria" they want you to think it is.

[–]ascom 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it exists as a thing and is a genuine mental health condition or dysfunction (a mix of sociological/psychological/neurological issues) but I also tend to agree that straight most TIMs are AGPs to a greater or lesser extent depending on any underlying conditions eg. autism

[–]Sittingonarainbow 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A rare one.