The infuriating rise of anti science behavior in every corner of society.

submitted by Bogos from self.GenderCritical

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[–]Bogos[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

Yes, a lot of what I said exists on both left and right. What issues do you have with the left specifically in regard to science, beyond what I mentioned ?

[–][deleted] 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You've basically summed it up - though, I think there's an argument to be made for holistic medicine folks. I'm not necessarily dismissing herbal or traditional medicines, but for some, it becomes an ideology not based in reality (I'm thinking the essential oil women).

[–]Bogos[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I sympathize with that completely. I have someone close to me and everything is solved with magic drops

[–]catoboros 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

The placebo effect is real. Placebos have a place where evidence-based medicine is ineffective or has intolerable side-effects.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I mean, we could argue the same about the families that try to pray away their children's illness with the placebo effect. It's still anti-science to believe in essential oils or healing prayer.

[–]catoboros 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not quite. Double-blind studies have shown prayer to have either no effect (if unknown to the object) or be slightly harmful (if known to the object). Cardiac patients, if I recall correctly.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Why are we treating science like a God? Maybe science doesn't know everything. They can't even explain consciousness.

[–]Realwoman 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Science is very much aware many things are unknown and scientists always point that out. Every scientific paper includes limitations. Woo, on the other hand, claims to have all the answers and the claims are not supported by evidence or they're unfalsifiable. You can objectively prove if a treatment works for a certain condition and after the evidence has been well established, the method becomes regulars medicine.

[–]Bitchcraft 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Science is based on epistemic humility. As in: "we concede we don't know things and the burden of proof is on the one proposing an explanation".

Pro-Science people don't say "science knows everything". Pro-Science people say "science is the best chance we have to figure out the most". The reason science can't explain consciousness is because currently there is no approach to explaining consciousness that doesn't involve pulling things out of your ass, which science rejects.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Science is massively politically driven. According to current science, gender dysphoria is no longer a mental illness (even thought it was just until a few years ago). Should we assume that this is the only area where politics takes precedence over fact?

[–]Bitchcraft 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

According to current science

Science is a method, not an opinion. Some academics say that, and many oppose then. Academia and science are also not the same thing. There are many areas where the opinions of scientists are split, political or not. Science can't and shouldn't work as an authority. It's a practice. You don't need a license to apply scientific methods and have an opinion on a subject in scientific discourse.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Psychology is a social "science" that desperately wants to be a physical science with a pretty horrible history to that fact.

[–]OrneryStruggle 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

To be fair most contemporary psychology research is actually biology research, and involves stuff like staining brain slices, genetically engineering rats to have cancer to measure their hormone levels, etc.

But the woo-woo "personality psychology" and clinical psych fields are... a mess. Anything to do with the DSM in particular is politicking all the way through.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Anything to do with the DSM in particular is politicking all the way through.

I mean, the DSM is a money-making business, so we shouldn't be surprised, but society seems to consider it some infallible bible of mental states.

[–]Lilith_Fair 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Antivax is not limited to the right. It crosses party line and there are a lot of holistic, hippie types who buy into all that, as well as all the Gwenyth Paltrow Goop crap. I've seen tons of lib-fem type moms-the kind who are all into natural foods, everything "natural" and organic, save-the-earth types who are very much antivax too. They blog about it with arguments backed by "science".

[–]RestingWitchface 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think the reason why many women are into natural foods, alternative therapies, etc. is because the mainstream healthcare system has failed them so badly. I have a lot of personal experience with this – in 2013, I became very sick with a severe virus and nobody could help me. I was sick for years on end, and I basically had doctors telling me I was mentally ill (despite testing positive for the virus showing a very clear trigger). When I was in this position, alternative therapies became very attractive because they offered to actually help me. The one I tried actually did help. I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I completely sympathise with women who have no trust in medicine/science, because I have experienced its failings first-hand. I think the medical community should start taking responsibility for those failures rather than painting those women as crazy or naive. It has been my experience more than a few times that the advice I got from other women was better than anything offered by my doctor.

[–]OrneryStruggle 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I tried some alternative therapies for some of my health issues which actually had a good track record of showing efficacy in clinical trials - a lot of medications that actually work are only "naturopathic" because they are natural and thus can be sold OTC without a script, but can do similar things to drugs on the market. Ephedra is one example from Chinese medicine. For a lot of women with weird health issues no one knows how to treat, this makes naturopathic medicines attractive I think BECAUSE it is all OTC and doesn't require a prescription, and therefore self-medication is possible.

They actually did help (I had a very clearly quantifiable symptom which resolved almost immediately upon starting them), and my GP ended up telling me to keep it up, so it's not even like doctors don't accept "alternative" therapies at times. I had a specialist actually recommend an OTC "natural" medicine for a symptom once.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Anti vax is most definitely not a conservative stance. Almost majority of the anti vaxxers I know are liberals. Places like Mississippi and other republican states have made it compulsory to have vaccines to attend public schools vs California and New York that have made it optional if parents object. I feel like politically anti vaxxers definitely lean liberal.

[–]denverkris 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You think right wingers are anti vax? I thought that was a lefty thing.

[–]Aquadog 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've seen it in 3 spheres:

  1. Granola people.

  2. Conspiracy-theorist "Vaccines make you gay"/big pharma etc.

  3. Whataboutism people who were probably vaccinated but want to play "devil's advocate."

[–]denverkris 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ya, I know several number 1's who are super far left that are anti vax.

[–]Realwoman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Donald Trump has expressed anti vax sentiments

[–]denverkris 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Ok. And so has Jenny McCarthy.

[–]Realwoman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I was just giving you an example of a right wing leader with anti vax beliefs. A lot of left wing people and people with no political affiliation have those same beliefs, too

[–]denverkris 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That's fine. May just be that all the irl anti vaxxers I know are super left leaning, whereas I dont any right wingers with those sentiments. But that's certainly not proof of anything.