all 27 comments

[–]censorshipment 17 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

I agree with every word! One of the first things I noticed in Reddit's women-centric subs, when I created my first account in 2019, was Redditors agreeing with me but complaining about my tone... and downvoting me because of my tone even though they agreed. Why is tone more important than the statement being made?

"It's not what you say but how you say it" is often said to me (by other women) and false accusations of me being a man, in online spaces, are rampant. Guess I need an etiquette class. Lmao

[–]Camberian[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh yes. I get that accusation (being a man) also quite often. And the tone one, too.

But the tone is usually just factual and neutral. I've been once accused of having a horrid tone for stating things in the manner of "1+1=2" or "Albert Einstein was a genius". Those are factual statements, they do not need any "tone" applied to them. I'm not going to say "In my humble opinion, and you might see it differently, but I suggest that one plus one might be two." No way, no how.

The problem is that this, and the refusal to listen to and think through criticism is growing worse now. Much worse.

[–]censorshipment 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Fragility is on the rise along with mental illnesses. 👀

[–]MenAreFragileBabies 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, it's considered rude no matter what to criticize people it seems, though. Unless you apologize for it before and after, no criticism is allowed. We must be nice-- OR ELSE!

[–]Doorknob8 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Silly, considering there is no "tone" in a written message, specially if you don't know the person who is writing it.

[–]Camberian[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Apparently the moment you do not grovel and self-deprecate you have a "tone".

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are people taught to expect others to be nice, mollycoddle, etc. or are people taught to expect women to be nice, never criticize, etc.? I can think of endless examples of men not conforming to that without penalty, and very few women who are allowed to violate that expectation.

[–]Camberian[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So right! And if you are your normal self on the internet with a neutral name, people do not chastise you, instead they believe you are a guy.

[–]missdaisycan 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for writing this! Big sigh of recognition with the majority of comments here. (Thanks for those, too.)

I left my last job because the new manager believed everyone but her had to live by the "Platinum Rule": treat others the way they want to be treated.
Of course, in theory, that'd be great, but, when unreciprocated, it's pure authoritarian behaviorial modification. It was "I want you to interact with everyone as a placating, smiling, extrovert despite you being a direct, RBF, introvert." I'm a scientist, dammit, not a politician! And this is a scientific discussion!
Why has no one treated me the way I want to be treated? Am I to assume I'm deviant or unworthy? I swear, "rules for thee, not for me" is also ingrained in these people.

[–]FuriousPenguin 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think it started with ridiculous patents saying "we don't tell our child no because it's a negative word"

Yeah now your child is a negative presence thanks to you. Ugh.

[–]fuckingsealions 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm reading The Coddling of the American Mind right now, and the authors describe children as "antifragile" and says the current generation haven't had enough shocks and stressors to promote growth. Plus now we have the notion that words are actual violence.

This is the article the book was based on: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/09/the-coddling-of-the-american-mind/399356/

The current movement is largely about emotional well-being. More than the last, it presumes an extraordinary fragility of the collegiate psyche, and therefore elevates the goal of protecting students from psychological harm. The ultimate aim, it seems, is to turn campuses into “safe spaces” where young adults are shielded from words and ideas that make some uncomfortable. And more than the last, this movement seeks to punish anyone who interferes with that aim, even accidentally. You might call this impulse vindictive protectiveness. It is creating a culture in which everyone must think twice before speaking up, lest they face charges of insensitivity, aggression, or worse.

I've also been policed for my tone in minor disagreements on ideas on reddit, mostly in pink pill. I don't really participate in ad hominem attacks unless I'm poking fun at a public figure, so it was really about not being able to have discourse.

[–]Camberian[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And I just had another such occurrence. Apparently these days "certain" things may not even be mentioned or written about anymore. I'm sorry, but we are post-1984. If violence or negative behaviour can't be tabled or used in the arts anymore, because people expect that to be some Disneyworld instead, arts lose its meaningfulness.

And I'll add something, which might not be so popular. This entire thing has two sides. If violence towards men is acceptable (as a topic or in any kind of art) and that towards women gets the Disney treatment, then that is just as much of a problem.

[–]Camberian[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you, a fabulous article! I need to get that book.

[–]catoboros 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Social media echo chambers enforce mollycoddling with the threat of exclusion. I am shocked how many young adults are intolerant of any form of dissent. Not only do they demand validation for themselves, they demand validation for others to demonstrate their own virtue.

[–]sisterinsomnia 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Perhaps linked to that, I am also shocked by the widespread disappearance of critical thinking ability. Debates are impossible under those conditions and the nasty slur responses they produce the only possible outcome if the other side has never been taught how to defend a point they made.

My school years weren't that nice but the teachers did train all of use to debate and to keep going at the face of opposition, with facts and so on. I am grateful for that lesson now and use it probably daily.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Edit: my paragraphs are all over the place... sorry, this is on mobile.

I think the “be nice” mantra is shoved much harder onto the marginalized or less powerful people.

For example, it’s been “trendy” to hate single mothers for a while. Single mothers, meanwhile, are demanded to be accepting and welcoming to all walks of vermin and sexually depraved monsters, abusers, etc. Vulnerable women of all stripes are expected to always grovel and thank people and bend over backwards to please them.

The hyper coddling of boys is downright dangerous.

I have no problems with LGB folks living in peace, or normal trans people living in peace. I’m chill with people behaving outside the christian conservative ideal, but the push for us to embrace sexual depravity (especially 24/7 porn and the behaviors depicted in it) and to coddle everyone’s kinks in general is harmful to women. People will attack you like crazy if you critique their precious porn. The denial about the harmful nature of it is unreal.

I am probably aging myself, though. My parents were silent generation. I couldn’t sneeze without being criticized or corrected. Somehow I became numb to it, or something.. but if a person can’t handle any criticism at all, I’d say there’s also some kind of mental illness/anxiety lurking underneath. Perhaps a lot of people were coddled excessively (at least in the US) due to teachers being forced to accommodate to each and every random “disability” every child had in the classroom. I KNOW many teachers experience extreme difficulty correcting or disciplining students due to hyper protective parents and aspects of the ADA.

Not that kids don’t have legit disabilities, but the teachers I’ve known said many parents would abuse this and force teachers to allow their kids to pass subjects without really passing.

I had ADHD diagnosed as an adult. I had to drag my own ass into getting a 3.8 by the time I was in HS. No help, no diagnosis, just lectures and screaming at my poor grades. My parents were old school and wouldn’t have gotten me a diagnosis, let alone hired a tutor or would have told the teacher to be nice to me and give me better grades.

While I would have benefitted off an IEP, who knows if my work ethic would have been as good. My guess is it wouldn’t have been, since other people my age and slightly younger don’t seem to have much of one in the field I’m in.