Question: Is there evidence that there is no such a thing as a male brain or a female brain?

submitted by AllInOne from (self.GenderCritical)

It is a widespread idea that men and women are distinguished by their brains, and that a "transman is a male brain in the female body", etc, especially among the "trans" (more so among "transmedicalists/truscums", just like Blaire White that says gender is biological and not a social construct in his "gender is not a social construct" video). To give one more example of this out of many; https://www.reddit.com/r/Transphobes/comments/axy3a7/im_here_to_inform_about_how_how_being_transgender/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Say you are a ftm (female to male), you were born a girl with the brain structure of a man

grey and white matter in girl vs. boy brains = http://buism.com/neurons_files/image001.jpg

"You're describing how being delusional works." By having the wrong body you’re delusional...???? You’re the one that’s delusional if you believe that they don’t have the right to be what their brain tells them to be. Also trans people are not mentally healthy, they have a mental condition called gender dysphoria (Being transgender itself is not a mental illness)

And then came these comments;

so being transgender is a thing in the brain. Sometimes people are born with the brain of the opposite gender. Sometimes they are inbetween. It makes more sense to change the body to fit the brain than the other way around. Mostly because modifying the brain to that degree of precision is impossible with current technology. But sure, if you know how to perfectly restructure a brain go ahead. You would revolutionize the medical field.

If you had the brain of a tiger than you are a tiger

They are consistent in that at least they say "a trans man has a male brain so a trans man is a male, if someone has the brain of a tiger then they are a tiger and not a human"

How to debunk these arguments? Is there evidence that there is no such a thing as a male brain or a female brain?

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[–]jet199 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There is such things as male or female brains but so far none of those differences have been connected to personalities or behaviour because likely those functions are very complex and on a very small scale.

The most obvious difference is that men have bigger brains, even when accounting for body size, while women have more grey matter. It's likely men's brains just have more padding, white matter, to protect from head injuries. In theory this could mean women's brains are more efficient but that's not been proved. You do certainty find a lot of fast thinking women.

Sophie Scott at UCL is a good person to talk to about this. I won't link directly but her contact details are on the university's website.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think that this is the important point. I used to study and work in psychology/neurobiology, and I’ve gone out of my way to read some of the studies that get thrown around to support “gendered” brains. These studies do not make any real assertions about gendered feelings or behavior. They simply point out that there may be structural differences between male and female brains. Is it possible that structural differences do, in fact, influence or correspond to gendered behavior? It’s possible. But it’s also possible, like you said, that it’s on a small scale or makes no difference at all. To say that these studies prove that there is such a thing as a girlbrain or boybrain is taking it one (or several) steps too far and misrepresents the findings.

[–]Lucretia 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, she’s good, and neuroscientist Daphna Joel has written a lot on this as well.

[–]jkfinn 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If the men say they have ladybrains, then you can bet that they do. But if the child says “the emperor has no clothes,” that’s what’s true.

Pseudo-science mixed with pseudo-psychology magically arrives at a ladybrain.

[–]fuckingsealions 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's studies. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

I like the phrase "neurosexism."

[–]lefterfield 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

They are consistent in that at least they say "a trans man has a male brain so a trans man is a male, if someone has the brain of a tiger then they are a tiger and not a human"

No human is born with the brain of a tiger, though, and there are no tests on tigers to determine if they have tiger brains before we classify them as tigers. It's a false analogy fallacy. The question to ask is how do we classify organisms by sex: By analyzing their chromosomes, sexual organs, and primary and secondary sexual characteristics. Never by doing brain studies. Whether or not all males have male brains and all females have female brains is irrelevant to the question of whether that male-brained person has a penis. If so(or it can be otherwise determined biologically), he's a male.

[–]AllInOne[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Yes, but the TQs go from "a trans man has a male brain in the female body and a trans woman has a female brain in the male body" to "a trans man is a female in the wrong body so surgeries should be done to change the body to fit the male brain", etc, to that I don't know what to say and how to argue against it. Do you know how to do that?

Also, how to argue again this; "a brain is a sex organ like the penis, vagina, etc so the brain determines sex"

[–]lefterfield 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I mean... the brain is not a sex organ. I can only assume they get that from the idea that sexuality is determined somehow by the brain? It's really hard to argue with people who state blatant lies and want you to prove them false. All I can say is to ask them how we determine the sex of animals, or plants, or insects. None of those creatures have the language to declare their sex, but we can still confidently classify them as male or female.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No, they call it a sex organ because without the brain the reproductive system wouldn't work, so it's a sex organ itself.

I asked once if the brain is also a respiratory organ given that lungs wouldn't work without it either, and the answer was yes.

I tried to explain that this isn't how systems are classified, and that by that logic blood is also a sex organ because without it reproductive systems would not work, but I didn't receive an answer.

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, that's just nonsense. I don't think you can argue with ideologues.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I thought it was because it’s the brain that triggers orgasm so that’s why it’s called a sex organ.

[–]Omina_Sentenziosa 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This would make more sense than the crap I have read on the matter, to be honest.

But no, whenever I had this conversation it was all about the fact that the brain controls the reproductive system, or that the brain is the most important thing in our bodies given that it contains our sexual identity (not for, you know, all the stuff it does, just because it's a lady or gent brain) and as such it was the most important sex organ we have screw genitals and gonads!

[–]ImPiqued1111111 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If that was the case, how are they measuring it? Are they doing brain scans to diagnose someone as a trans woman?

[–]sisterinsomnia 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The human brain is somewhat plastic, and this means that our brains will start looking different over time if they are used in different ways, even if they might not have looked different initially. An old study of London cab drivers from the era when they had to memorize an enormous number of addresses showed that the long-term memory location in their brains grew much bigger when they had to study all that stuff. Other studies show that depressive episodes can leave permanent marks in the brain and so on.

So when we compare brains of men and women and of trans men and trans women, we should keep this in mind. The more women's lives, on average, differ from men's lives, the more apparent differences we will find.

The research field of looking for sex differences is, by the way, almost always chosen by people who already believe in innate differences and are looking for them. There is no field of sex similarities, and clearly there should be.

When a study finds no sex difference in the brain, the results are usually written up as being about something different altogether, so we never notice how very many studies actually do find no differences. Good to be careful in assigning too much value to yet some new study "explaining" female subjugation as just an obvious fact caused by innate differences. Those studies have cropped up for more than a hundred years, and when one is refuted another pops up. Then it takes a few years for the new criticisms about that study to be published, but by that time the popular media has moved on...

[–]firebird 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here are a few interesting articles on the topic that I saved a while back:

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/11/brains-men-and-women-aren-t-really-different-study-finds

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053811915007697

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2018.00399/full

https://undark.org/2019/09/06/myth-male-female-brain-gendered/

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/08/health/math-boys-girls-brains-scn/index.html?no-st=1573233406

[–]Realwoman 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There are differences between men and women but there is zero evidence that trans people possess the brain of the opposite sex. Also, let's use a very well known physical difference that not controversial - height. Men are taller than women and that's a fact. But does a short man have a woman's body? Is a tall woman a man? No, of course not.

If such a thing as a ladybrain existed, transgenderism would be easy to diagnose with a brain scan. But somehow no one uses brain scans to diagnose transgenderism, I wonder why? 🤔

Here is a great article:

https://theelectricagora.com/2020/06/02/on-sex-and-gender-identity-perspectives-from-biology-neuroscience-and-philosophy/

It's a long read, here are three paragraphs:

The volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of the stria terminals (BSTc), a brain area assumed to be essential for sexual behaviour in mammals, has been shown to be larger in males than in females. The foundational paper of the “brain sex” idea found that transgender people have BSTc typical of the other sex and concluded that transwomen have a women’s brain. (Zhou, Hofman et al. 1995) There are several caveats to this work and subsequent supporting studies. (Zhou, Hofman et al. 1995; Bao and Swaab, 2011) The findings are based on a very small number of subjects: only six transgender individuals, including only one female to male transgender person, were examined, and there is an overlap in the BSTs size range within the control population, begging the question whether the results are statistically significant. No systematic control for sexual orientation, which is known to influence the sexual differentiation of the brain, was performed. (Burke, Manzouri et al. 2017) The study was based on post-mortem observations and on a very small, specific area of the brain’s grey matter. The interpretation that the BSTs size is involved in the sexualisation of the brain is based on non-human models and there was no assessment of the impact of socialisation or potential hormonal treatments on the differentiation of the BSTc volume, which arises late in life (puberty), compared to other brain structures. More recent studies covering a much greater number of patients (Burke, Manzouri et al. 2017; Savic and Aver 2011) show that gender dysphoria has a unique fingerprint in the white matter connectivity, morphometry and structural volumetry of the brain, rather than a sex-atypical signature. In many of the white matter tracts studied by fractional anisotropy (FA) the transgender groups displayed overall (birth) sex-typical patterns, a similar degree of sexual differentiation as observed in homosexuals and a lower sexual differentiation than heterosexuals. (Burke, Manzouri et al. 2017) The lesser sexual differentiation in the brain of homosexual and transgender may be related to testosterone levels during foetal development. Interestingly, several studies that describe FA sex-atypical patterns in the transgender population do not control for sexual orientation. This study does correct the data for sexual orientation and shows that both male and female homosexuals exhibit as much sex-atypical features in selected parts of the brain as the transgender group. Yet homosexuals do not identify as being of the other sex or as having a female (male) brain in a male (female) body. When corrected for sexuality, people with gender dysphoria have a (birth) sex-typical brain but the part of the fronto-occipital track involved in processing body perception in relation to self, body awareness and ownership shows atypical features that neither the heterosexual nor the homosexual control (non-trans) groups possess.

Another study based on MRI scans from eight young transgender men (female at birth) shows that the area of the brain reacting to stimuli to the chest displays a dampened sensory response in transmen compared to female controls (n = 8). (Case, Brang et al. 2017) It is worth noting that this study had no male control group. This study, despite a very low number of participants and no male control group, is often cited to support the premise that trans-men have a male brain. We can argue that, in fact, these findings do not support the conclusion that transmen have a male typical reaction to stimuli and hence a male typical brain. Instead, the results are better explained by the observations and findings cited above that gender dysphoria is caused by atypical body ownership and self-perception in the fronto-occipital part of the brain (see above). (Burke, Manzouri et al. 2017) A more recent study points out that many of the brain-specific differences associated with gender dysphoria are situated in areas dealing with body ownership, distress and social behaviour. All are highly susceptible to be influenced by socialisation and trauma rather than innate. (Gliske, 2019)

[–]Realwoman 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here's some more:

Despite well-documented innate structural brain differences and the sex-specific early socialisation under which the brain plastically develops, males and females show an extraordinarily large overlap in psychological traits and cognitive types (empathic vs. systemic e.g. (Greenberg, Warrier et al. 2018)). In terms of cognitive abilities, psychology and behavioural expression, studies show that there are no clear male or female brains. One such study conducted in almost half a million people endeavoured to track brain-type differences and the signature of autism by scoring empathy (emotion), sensorial perception and systemizing (analytical) quotients using a simple questionnaire. Despite the complete overlap in the score distribution between male and female controls for these three parameters, the study found a small difference in the sex-specific averages and proceeded to conclude that there are typical female (empathic) and male (analytical) brains. However, what the data truly show is that the distributions are almost identical between men and women, with only a small difference in the modes (score reached by the highest number of people) of these 3 parameters between males and females. This means that the majority of men and women share the same score distribution for these parameters with a slightly increased number of men scoring marginally higher on the systematic quotient and lower on the empathic quotient compared to women. In addition, the finding that females score slightly higher on average for empathy for instance could be due to two factors: 1) the study relies on subjective responses to a coarse questionnaire, therefore the answers are subjective and can be influenced by internalised social expectations and 2) the alleged greater empathy displayed by women on average may be due entirely to socialisation in a world that often expects women to assume caring (empathetic) roles. The empathic- and systemic-type brains exist in both males and females including in their extreme manifestation and the variability observed within a sex is much greater than the average difference between sexes. (Baron-Cohen, Richler et al. 2003, Greenberg, Warrier et al. 2018)

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fantastic! Thank you.

[–]materialrealityplz 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Ah yeah, "ladybrains" who say "Suck my dick!"

[–]Yayme 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've never understood this argument. Even assuming it's true (spoiler alert, it's not) The argument is "My brain thinks my body should be a woman's body." Ok, so you have brain damage, or a birth defect in your brain, or whatever. That still doesn't physically make you a woman. We don't segregate spaces and sports based on "feelings." We segregate based on biological reasons, for women's safety and for fairness.

How do you get from having a birth defect, to being literally a woman? Are all the women with "man hands" literally men?

And of course, a lot of people say you don't even need dysphoria to transition. These are the men that want to be "the vessel of another's desire" or the women who don't want to be victims. Or whatever. These are the people who don't fit in with the stereotypes associated with their gender - the feminine men, and the masculine women.

And then there are the complete and total sickos. The wax my balls folks.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

According to this argument..if it actually is a brain issue, then would that not be called a mental illness? In addition, the idea that "It makes more sense to change the body to fit the brain than the other way around. " is VERY WRONG. This goes against the entire field of psychology. When someone has a mental illness, be it depression or anorexia - do we change try to change the body to match unhealthy thought patterns OR do we try rework unhealthy thought patterns in the brain to make them more comfortable with their existing bodies?

[–]Spikygrasspod 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I mean, there are sex differences all throughout the body. We have different livers, too. But if you found a male whose liver was more like a female liver, he wouldn't thereby be female because sex differences of the liver are not what define our sex. Same for brains. There may be differences, but these are associated with sex, they are not what defines sex. The only sensible thing you could say is that some people might have sex-atypical brains.

[–]Realwoman 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But then trans people are not even diagnosed through brainstorm scans, so they can't prove they have a ladybrain

[–]Spikygrasspod 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Indeed. I don't think the movement as a whole would be supportive of any test that could falsify some people's claims to be trans.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm seeing this and it's raising questions for me about Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Is CBT considered along the lines of conversation therapy for people "stuck in the other gender's brain"?

https://psychcentral.com/lib/in-depth-cognitive-behavioral-therapy/

Isn't DNA the determining factor for sex? Period? I mean there are optimal ranges within a variety of bloodwork panels for men and women: hematocrit, hemoglobin, uric acid, creatnine, total cholesterol, etc..

https://www.lifeextension.com/protocols/appendix/lab-testing

This article is just an example, but does being on transitionary hormones change the requirements for these tests as well?

[–]Realwoman 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Do trans people really consider CBT conversion therapy?

I've been wondering about the tests, too, which value do trans people use for their blood tests? How do they know is their hemoglobin is normal or not?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly don't know if they do or not, but there's a shit ton of gender affirming CBT articles that I came across when I was looking earlier. I would think that if you need to convince yourself thay you're another gender that the being a transperson deal should be a no-go.

Right? Like isn't this shit kind of important to keep up with, and why bio sex should be kept up with in medical records?