all 18 comments

[–]midgetmetalhead19 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

1) A better definition would be woman = ‘a person who underwent the developmental process in the womb to produce organs that produce eggs’ and man = ‘a person who underwent the developmental process in the womb to produce organs that produce sperm’. As a biologist I use this. So children are male/female. Women who’ve had a hysterectomy are still female by that definition. 2) Chromosomes. All the ‘man stuff’ is either encoded by or activated by the Y chromosome. It also inhibits the ‘lady stuff from the X chromosome. Fetuses undergo female development until the Y chromosome comes into play. In the absence of a Y chromosome, female development continues. If there’s any developmental biologists, they could maybe shed a bit more light. 3) Gender roles were originally constructs to prevent women doing pretty much anything. They’re still prevalent- look at the stuff aimed at boys (DO STUFF) and girls (LOOK PRETTY). Society needs money to function. It does not need ‘gender roles’- men and women can both do most jobs. Non-binary? Others will probably have different reasons, but I’m commonly seeing NB lumped in with female for sports leagues and ‘equality stuff’- the position of ‘women’s officer’ at my uni is now ‘women and NB officer’. If NB are being treated as women are they going to be accessing female-only spaces?
Hope this helps and apologies for the essay.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Great explanation.

OP, if you'd also like an analogy, this author makes a good one: https://web.archive.org/web/20200618033839/https://quillette.com/2020/06/07/jk-rowling-is-right-sex-is-real-and-it-is-not-a-spectrum/

(edit for clarity)

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a GP, I agree. We are either potentially capable of making eggs or sperm. There are anomalies that occur but those still just interfere with whether we have potential to make eggs or sperm.

But we get slaughtered at birth for looking like we can make eggs, and we get raped and enslaved for same.

As a woman whose ovaries have timed out, I don't see anyone treating me with more respect than they did a few years ago.

[–]Feather 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There are tons of potential answers to all your questions, so I'll give the first ones that have risen to the top of my head while reading your post. Some answers will be in the form of analogies, or questions which I believe you will be able to answer for yourself.

Question 1# If female is something that makes eggs and male is something that makes sperm, then are kids sexless? A newborn can not produce sperm. If pre-pubescent kids are not sexless, can you tell me why?

If an apple tree is a tree that produces apples and an orange tree is a tree that produces oranges, then why are apple seeds of the genus malus and orange seeds of the genus citrus? How can a seed be an apple seed or an orange seed if it's not growing apples or oranges?

Question 2# Why are organs like penis, testes, etc male organs and why are organs like vagina, clitoris, uterus, ovaries, etc female organs? What I mean is, why can't organs like penis, testes, etc be female and why can't organs like vagina, clitoris, uterus, ovaries, etc be male? What are the reasons?

Reframe this in terms of non-human animals. Would you say a dog has a female penis or a male vagina? These categories (female and male) exist in order to describe an observed phenomenon in the physical world. The phenomenon goes as follows: lifeforms that engage in sexual reproduction tend to have two sexes (there are some wacky exceptions and complications, but they do not apply to humans because those organisms aren't similar to humans in any way except some shared DNA from back when all our ancestors were microscopic floaters in the sea), as we see with dogs, mice, a variety of plants, bees, and so forth. Female and male describe these categories even far outside the realm of gender. A snake cannot be a man or a woman, but a snake can be male or female.

These categories do not exist subjectively because observable physical processes and biological traits like DNA are not subjective.

More to the point, what words are we supposed to use to describe these observable physical processes and biological traits and patterns? If we don't see vaginas as a female sex organ, are we supposed to then claim dogs with vaginas aren't female? It leads us down a crazy path, a path in which words don't mean anything and therefore information cannot be conveyed clearly. The entire point of words and categories is to convey meaning.

Question 3# What harms do gender and non-binary cause? If gender is a social construct, why should it be abolished when other social constructs like money are not abolished? And lastly, why is being non-binary harmful?

I think the most important thing here is that many trans activists started out by claiming they were separating the notion of gender from the physical reality of sex. That didn't seem so threatening and, in itself, might not be. But now many of them are claiming that gender and sex are the same thing (as you know, based on your questions about why penises can't be female).

This has a whole host of horrible potential consequences.

I won't go into them all, but let's just pick one. Females and males often have different medical reactions to various medications and medical treatments. Females and males also present with different symptoms of the same illnesses. This has been horrible for females, because most medical studies assumed men were the default and studied males. This is why, as just one example, it's taken so goddamn long for people to realize that the female symptoms of a heart attack are very often different from the male symptoms.

If we decide to legally enshrine the notion that a penis, testes, prostate, and entire male body can actually be a female body, how the hell are we supposed to collect data on the real, observable, and life-or-death differences between male and female bodies? If we have to claim that bodies are only as male or female as the claims of the minds that inhabit them, it is verboten and, in fact, not even practically possible to study the different needs of those different sorts of bodies. And people die.

I'm sure some people would call that argument a slippery slope argument, but the entire TRA movement has been careening down a slippery slope for years so it's reasonable to assume they'll continue.

[–]sisterinsomnia 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My take on #3: Gender roles, norms and stereotypes are one of the main ways cultures keep women down, and that is why they can be harmful from the feminist angle.

The problem with the nonbinary gender identity is that it only has meaning if everyone else accepts being viewed as binary, i.e., accepting of sexist and retrogressive stereotypes about what it means to be a woman or a man. The feminist ideal, in my view, is for everyone to have nonbinary identities, i.e., not to have things rigidly put into boxes by one's sex or gender.

[–]usernamezerozero 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A female will go through many life stages that are orchestrated by complex hormonal interactions. Puberty, menstrual cycles, pregnancy (if sexual intercourse with a male), perimenopause and menopause. Once we go through menopause we are not “non-woman.” We are a women in a particular stage of development orchestrated by hormones. As a woman going through menopause, I can assure you that female hormones affect more than the menstrual cycle.

What I see with the male trans activists is an attempt to colonize the lived experiences of women; to erase anything that is female-centric ( such as childrearing ) and replace it with superficial gendered stereotypes (swimsuit model). It's also what neo-liberal feminism does. Keep quiet about your menstrual cycle, childbearing and the second-shift of parenting, the female tax (everything more expensive while salaries less), the effect of pornography on your intimate life, and we will let you continue. If you start to speak up about these female-centric topics you are penalized.

I would also like to say that not only “feminine” women have maternal desires. I know many butch women who have carried children and are amazing parents. It is sad to think that such women today are being put on the path to sterility.

[–]aldoushuxleyghost 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

1: A female is a biological reality... someone who potentially can, is currently making or used to make large gametes (ie ova), and secondary to this then the system of organs you list to gestate a zygote. A female will never make small gametes (ie sperm). The opposite is also true, a male is someone who will, is currently making or used to produce small gametes. A male will never produce an ova. The rest is obfuscation.

2: This is obfuscation, TRAs love to bring up development disorders of intersex people (which are very rare) to "prove" sex is a spectrum, not binary etc. That's like saying someone born without legs proves humans are not bipedal. It's nonsense.

If you are actually determined to understand and figure this out, I suggest you carefully watch: https://www.youtube.com/c/ParadoxInstitute ( Also on twitter: https://twitter.com/zaelefty/status/1280974218369421316 )

3: Gender is a social construct, based on feelings and culture. Sex is biological reality that surgeries (that are essentially cosmetic) can not erase. It can harm everything. Look at what it is doing to our language alone. You can't even understand what is male or female even though 99.6% of us are one of the two. What about ... Women's sports, prisons, scholarships, women's shelters are affected if we accept anyone can declare themselves a woman, yet remain male bodied (with it's great strength, violent and rapey tendencies.) As far as I can tell Non-binary is a reaction to Gender Identity. Since Gender ID insists your internal "feeling like a woman/man" means you are woman/man, than non-binary people insist they feel like neither, again notice everything based on "feelings".

Gender should be abolished because it upholds old regressive sexist stereotypes (pink is for girls, blue is for boys type stuff). I can't believe we've gone back to the point where I have to argue this. Gender ideology is harmful to gender-non-conforming kids and adults. It means, if a little girl plays with trucks and legos and hates dresses, people now think this girl should actually be a transboy.

[–]ZeWombat 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for posting the video from the Paradox Institute. They're a new channel and I didn't know about them. Looks to be a great resource.

[–]malleus_maleficarum 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

[–]aldoushuxleyghost 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, though the length of the inquiry is what made me think it is sincere and not trolling. Anwyay, I found it a good exercise in GC flexing.

[–]malleus_maleficarum 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Do as thou wilt. I do not stand in the way of other women.

But if this were my kid I'd crack my belt over s/h/it.

[–]PainfulTruthsMatter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, this was my immediate thought reading the "questions", especially the one asking if kids are "sexless" because they hadn't hit puberty.

[–]Spikygrasspod 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Unless there's a DSD, girls are born with eggs and boys are born with the testes that will one day make sperm. But actually I think it make sense to look at a cluster of traits that make us female or male: chromosomes, gonads, genitalia, internal reproductive organs, hormones, and the ways that hormones shape the body in utero and in puberty. So removing all of one's sex organs would make one somewhat physically androgynous, though some things like the chromosomes and secondary traits developed in puberty would remain, and honestly the traits we develop in puberty are a huge part of how we socially classify each other.
  2. Male and female describe different reproductive roles. Females are the ones that conceive, gestate and deliver young. Males impregnate. The organs you named are male and female because those are our names for those reproductive types. Penis can't be female because having a penis is one of the key defining criteria for being male. It's like asking why odd numbers can't be even numbers.
  3. In male dominated societies, gender serves to make sex based injustice seem natural and inevitable, or even invisible. We probably can't abolish all gender norms because norms will always arise around social groups, and male and female will always form into social groups. But we can make those norms less harmful, more flexible, and stop the brutality of rigid gender roles and the policing of gender non conformity with violence and humiliation... or with medical treatment. We're all non-binary... the whole lie of gender is that we aren't. The harm only comes from declaring that being non-binary (AKA gender non-conforming) erases one's sex and sex-based social grouping and socialisation. It doesn't. And we have plenty of experience that shows that, when we neglect the importance of sex, it's women who suffer.

[–]aldoushuxleyghost 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

We're happy you're here to. I'm glad you found us and are asking questions! Keep diggin and keep questioning, never stop... Whatever you end up believing.

[–]Amelia[S] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Thank you for your warm welcome, you are so kind! 😭😃 The responses I am receiving from you guys to my questions are perfect and make me understand and be on the side of GC, thank you!

[–]aldoushuxleyghost 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No problem. In general this is a great bunch of women... and way smarter than me, so you are in good hands.

[–]worried19 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We actually have a new debate sub here.

https://saidit.net/s/GCdebatesQT

Please visit if you get a chance. Right now things are pretty quiet, but I'm hoping it will pick up steam. We just need more posters.

[–]fijupanda 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

To answer some of your qs...

Sex is genetic. Our cells are either XX chromosomes or XY chromosomes. Women are XX, men are XY. We all start as female in the womb, only after 6 weeks does a gene activate the Y chromosome... source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1Kdoja3hlk&feature=emb_title

https://www.realclearscience.com/blog/2013/11/male_and_female_cells_are_not_the_same.html