all 39 comments

[–]Sun_bear 37 insightful - 2 fun37 insightful - 1 fun38 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I do think the world is becoming more sexist, not less, and I've seen some surveys that suggest more sexist attitudes amoung younger people than older ones.

I blame porn. It used to be porn was hard to come by and seen as a bit creepy, but now the internet is awash with increasingly violent and disturbing content. Men who jack off to images of female abuse are conditioning themselves to find pleasure in violence against women.

I also blame capitalism which is failing young people en mass. Men are then wrongly attributing the blame for that to women.

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah I think you're onto something with the capitalism failing young people thing. I believe that in the US anyways we do have a surplus of labor that is only being further exacerbated by automation among other factors. It's very to see this and say "see, it's all the fault of women joining the workforce" meanwhile the time where you could just get a simple factory job and live the "american dream" was long gone anyways. Maybe I misinterpreted what you said by capitalism failing young people, but this is a sentiment that I think is common and just breeds more resentment.

[–]Sun_bear 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think your interpretation of what I said is correct!

To go into more depth; essentially if you look at a graph of productivity vs earnings, you will see that for around 30 years after the second world war as productivity went up, earnings did too. However around 1980 they became decoupled and now being are becoming more and more productive but their earnings have stagnated. Here's a graph that demonstrates that:

What we have is a cohort of people - millenials aren't really that young anymore - who have made HUGE investments into themselves, both in terms of time and money. The average millennial I know has spent years taking professional courses, degrees, developing soft skills and other relevant personal attributes. There's a lot of unpaid overtime that everyone is expected to do and people are expected to keep up with developments in their field on their own time. The benefit of all that extra productivity goes not to the worker though, but to the upper management.

Then not only are millennials working more for less, housing, education and transport are now vastly more expensive in real terms than ever before. (I'm writing this from a UK perspective, hence not including healthcare) I know so many people who are in their mid to late 30s still living in cheap house shares when someone with an equivalent job in their 60s owns a three bedroom semi that they bought in their mid 20s.

This is a very brief summary of why I think capitalism is not a very good system! But I think some young (35 and under) men have a tendency to misdiagnose the problem as being the fault (somehow) of women. I think the argument goes that because women entered the work force there's more competition hence lower pay, and it is very difficult to buy or even rent a house without two salaries, which is a very silly argument of course.

[–][deleted] 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As another user has said, I think it's linked to porn, this female hate that has emerged. Porn always dehumanizes women, and when people dehumanize a group they don't see that group as human and history shows us that dehumanizing groups usually results in violence.

This idea too that we can't ''kink shame'' is disgusting too. It's really just saying that men can get away with anything if its linked to sex, which is wrong - men use ''kink shaming'' to get away with shitty behaviour towards women, such as violence towards women.

I think there's also an element of men seeing this moment as a way to what they see as getting back at women for the past one hundred years of trying to liberate us from them.

[–]Sun_bear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree with you regarding kink shaming. I have read quite a few rape cases where the victim was covered with terrible injuries and they've been dismissed because they could be part of 'consentual rough sex' which just horrifies me. You cannot consent to abuse! You cannot consent to being murdered! If a woman is covered in injuries but a rape cannot be proven then the man should at least be punished for actual bodily harm. It is not normal to want to be beaten and hurt during sex, it's suggestive of being broken. It is not normal to want to hurt someone during sex either - it seems evidence of a sadistic and cruel person to me.

[–]malleus_maleficarum 17 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

Off the cuff: yes.

My current theory over drinks is that Mental Weakness is the cause. (Ask me next week and it may have changed.)

A few years ago, I was on my lunch break and was fixing something in my car's naughty bits in the parking lot. 2 mins tops. Total cakewalk. And a man in his twenties walked past and stopped with the weirdest look on his face (I work a tech job and was wearing a suit), and he asked me what I was doing. And I said, "Oh it's nothing serious. You know how it is, when cars get this old little things are constantly breaking." And he said, I shit you not, "I have no idea how to do that," and he got in his brand new car and drove away.

After that I started seeing weakness everywhere.

I'm at the age where my friends have teens. And ALL of these kids have anxiety and come off as very immature. Most of them are seeing therapists. Most of them are medicated.

None of these kids are in a rush to get a driver's license, they don't belong to any classes, teams or clubs based around physical activity or life skills. No chess, soccer, debate, baseball, shooting, shop, automotive repair, martial arts, volleyball, or 4-H... None! The only groups any of my friends' kids belong to are the kinds of organisations like TAQ+ clubs where people sit around nitpicking each other over minutiae and feeding the Purity Spiral

They don't have jobs. They don't have meaningful chores. They don't have social skills. They don't contribute in a visible way to their own quality of life or to their family and are responsible for nothing... so how are they supposed to develop meaningful self-worth or confidence that doesn't come from an outside party?

If no one had prepared me for adulthood, I'd be anxious too. If I had never learned self-worth, I suppose I'd care about other people validating me.

The best way to learn to take a punch is to get punched. The best way to develop life skills is to practice, which necessarily involves failure and trying again...and no one is letting making them practice, or fail, or learn.

So here we have a flood of boys reaching adulthood who have no social skills and no life skills and no self worth and no resilience, who have grown up watching violent porn. But now they're meeting real women with thoughts and feelings, and they're discovering that to get with those women they need life skills, maturity, and partnership skills that take decades to hone. But they don't have them.

And since they don't know how to deal with disappointment or rejection or anger, and since developing skills and taking punches is hard work, they're reacting with violence, MRA twaddle, silencing, and trying to force women to just be the things they saw in teh pr0nz. Because it's easier. And since there's always some dumb handmaid out there who will give them what they want, they never learn.

[–]missdaisycan 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I love this, it is so well written! Cheers!🍹

[–]malleus_maleficarum 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I'm so bitter I could be distilled as a cocktail flavour.

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Great explanation and you pretty much covered all the bases that I have nothing to add to this. All I can say is that I'm scared for the future of society because having an entire generation of young, aimless, and purposeless men wandering around looking for a meaning anywhere they can find it is defiently a recipe for disaster society-wise.

[–]StupidHappyPancakes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think males have learned to be too dependent upon females for validation, emotional caretaking, and motivation. The angry and bitter incels may talk about sex constantly and blame their virgin status for their woes, but it's more that males have learned to be validated through women having sex with them. It's why most incels don't feel better whatsoever if they lose their virginity to a prostitute, because then they feel even LESS like a man.

Males depend on females for emotional caretaking as well because they aren't encouraged to have deep connections in their male friendships, and thus they keep all their feelings locked up tight just waiting to find a woman with whom he can finally be himself. Young males today are growing up in a society that superficially berates toxic masculinity, and unfortunately many of these boys growing up feel revulsion or even hatred for their fathers, so they became alienated from masculinity and desperate to enter the emotionally gratifying company of femininity, yet they are too undersocialized to be able to interact with the opposite sex successfully.

Male friendly relationships with one another in general just seem so distant and casual these days, and far too many males only interact with their fellow males online, which exposes them to radical and hateful ideologies. Then they are told that all their woes are because they haven't had sex, because that's how a man proves he is valid and proves he is a member of the male community. Men used to have so many bonding experiences and even initiation rituals to welcome boys to manhood, but now the doorway to manhood has become SOLELY having sex, which encourages putting women way high up on pedastals one minute and then despising every woman alive the next. And in men who ARE married or partnered, more and more of them consider their wives their best friend or often really their ONLY friend.

This starts to make such males feel like females COULD solve all their problems SO easily if they WANTED to, and they feel rage and bewilderment when women fail to come along and fix everything that's wrong in their lives. I have spoken with an awful lot of men in their late teens/early 20s who have more of a fairy tale concept of relationships than even the average teenage girl, and it leaves them rudderless when their dream girl fails to materialize out of thin air. More and more men like this are simply opting out of life, reasoning that there's no reason to accomplish anything if a man is no longer guaranteed a wife and a family.

[–]malleus_maleficarum 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

an entire generation of young, aimless, and purposeless men

...basically that is the primary reason I spend time at the range.

[–]neveragain 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I think there's evidence that society at large is failing men. Or failing some men, especially those who do not have adequate support networks in real life.

Back in the day I used to lurk some 4chan boards, and while I can't speak to the culture over there now, the common creed at the time was "no women exist on the internet". Lurking Twitch streams now, depending on the streamer the chat has a similar vibe. Times change, but badly socialised men have always existed.

I don't know that labelling these men as "generally unpleasant" is particularly helpful though. While I was peaking I spent quite some time reading accounts of AGP from self-identified AGP males, and frankly it sounds like a terrible condition to deal with. Some of these men were clearly at their wit's end trying to figure out how to live with it while not being able to speak about it outside of small communities online.

That said, I'm not on here to point at incels or AGPs like a circus attraction. I don't think this forum is the best choice for this discussion. I'm here to speak about trans ideology impacting women's rights. I'm not against men posting here, but you've framed your post in a way that centres men's issues -- perhaps it would be a good idea to reflect on why you felt the need to come here and do that.

[–]Archie 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

society at large is failing men. Or failing some men,

Nice save, because honestly the first sentence is completely wrong: society is primarily made and ruled by and for men. But yes, the competitive nature of the caricatural man's gender role is extremely destructive for those who do not manage to make it. Those men always existed, but the internet gave them a voice.

This is one of the many reasons why we should have destroyed gender roles, and this from a very early age. Instead of reinforcing them like TRAS do nowadays.

[–]neveragain 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

society is primarily made and ruled by and for men

I think that liberal intersectional feminism has had a significant role in the current state of things. I also think that, even if we somehow manage to take liberal intersectional feminism out of the equation when we look at current western society, that still doesn't mean men alone aren't capable of failing themselves.

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah I'm not sure why I posted it here, I think it's because I knew it'd get the most engagement here which is very selfish of me since it isn't my space in the first place. I also overestimated the relevance of my topic here since it isn't a trans or women's issue, even though sometimes the issues of men become the issues of women.

And it wasn't very empathetic of me to call them "generally unpleasant" even though to the outside eye they very much are. A lot of these so called incels and other "deplorables" are very much hurting inside underneath all the layers of hate and bitterness. They're just looking for answers and for an explanation that will somehow rationalize all the pain and dejection they've been through. But again as you said this is off topic and not really the focus of the sub, I'll be limiting myself to gc guys from now on.

[–]neveragain 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can't speak for all the women here but as I said earlier, I don't mind men posting here at all. My concern was that the topic was framed in a way that centres men's issues. To put it crassly, it was, essentially, "Hey women, men's issues are getting worse, discuss." I understand that you may not have intended it to come across that way, and that with the recent Reddit banwave you also lost the GCGuys community (which I'm glad is reforming here on Saidit) and so may have been at a loss as to where to pose your question.

The topics in question do interest me, and they are important. But still, it's sort of like if I, a bisexual woman, went on the lesbian sub and asked them to discuss bisexuality. Do you see what I mean?

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah I do now, what I posted is just outside the scope of the sub and not its purpose. I see that a new gc guys sub has reformed so ill go over there with issues like this in the future, I appreciate the explanation.

[–]Lilith_Fair 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I personally don't have problems with your questions but you're probably better off posting this to s/GenderCriticalGuys. That's what that sub was created for, and women do and allowed to post there so both M&F will answer your questions there if they're interested. The previous sub on Reddit just got banned as you must know now already. Your starting a conversation there would help get things moving there as well.

[–]malleus_maleficarum 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

seconded. Please do cross-post to give the guys' sub a kickstart.

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah my bad, just noticed that today. I'll crosspost it and try to get things ramped up there, about time I stopped posting here anyways.

edit: i dont even think this site has a crosspost function so I guess I'll just copy and paste the question.

[–]Veneficca 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes and I think it was inevitable. Feminism taught women to raise their standards while many men still subscribe to male supremacism. Our expectations - hers for equality and respect, his for submission - were always going to end in a car crash. Men grow up seeing movies where they're the hero and the pretty girl is the prize. Their fathers and grandfathers were CEOs, senators, chiefs of staff while the only woman in the room was the secretary. Now they're adults and their female peers are out-achieving them, they may have to answer to a female boss, and they have to make themselves attractive to get a partner - because women don't need them for economic survival anymore.

No surprise that they show a growing bitterness and hostility toward women. Men feel cheated. Internet culture has allowed them to marinate in misogynist myths and porn has given them even more unrealistic expectations. They can never say "I'm wrong" so they double down on blaming women when their strategies fail. I have male relatives in their 20s who live in a fantasy world (all women have to do is complain about being complimented and a man will lose his job; all women are gold-diggers who use men for expensive dinners and stealing their husband's assets in divorce court, etc) and they simply will not listen to facts, statistics or the real people/situations around them. Their fantasy world is too attractive to their egos.

I don't know the solution. It's going to get worse before it gets better. This will change only when men realize it's hurting themselves - they don't care if something hurts women.

[–]Bogos 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I’m more interested in why you’re GC. Women don’t care about the motivations and delusions of incels as long as we can avoid them.

So why are you GC, and what are you hoping to gain from engaging here?

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Just wanted to gain some perspectives since I figured people had thoughts on the subject. Maybe this was the wrong sub to post this in, that'll be apparent soon and in which case I apologize.

And im not sure if I'd call myself GC. I agree with the premise, I agree that the current TiM idiocy in society is ridiculous, and I like lurking here and seeing any new developments. But obviously it's not a battle I can fight, I can't really do much besides call out something stupid in the world of TRAs or reprimand a male friend of mine when he has a irrational belief about women (sadly common). Therefore I don't think I can identify myself as GC since at the end of the day I can't do much and am unaffected. Despite that though I'm still interested in GC and just agree with a lot that is said here, I enjoy reading all the posts. Even the ones that come off as misandry to me, well maybe not as much lol.

[–]joeytundra 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

what exactly is misandry to you? Now think about what misogyny is to women. Apples to oranges. The way women are treated under misogyny is much worse than just critical examinations. We need to wake up to the toxic themes going on in male circles to turn us effeminate and anti-woman. Who would benefit from that? Not straight men. You need to read this shit...

From that link some quotes:

We shall sodomize your sons, emblems of your feeble masculinity, of your shallow dreams and vulgar lies. We shall seduce them in your schools, in your dormitories, in your gymnasiums, in your locker rooms, in your sports arenas, in your seminaries, in your youth groups, in your movie theater bathrooms, in your army bunkhouses, in your truck stops, in your all male clubs, in your houses of Congress, wherever men are with men together. Your sons shall become our minions and do our bidding. They will be recast in our image. They will come to crave and adore us.

(Now think about this...many incel circles online all have porn links. They hate women for no good reason and then go fap to more porn. Who is that really benefiting? Erosion of straight men to turn them into effeminate wussies and then blame feminism. Who would want to turn men against women so that there are more single mothers? Pedophiles would we cross into MGTOW... why are gay men in MGTOW like Sandman who is actively encouraging transactivism to push women down? Lesbians and all women need to wake up too.)

Another quote from that link

Women, you cry for freedom. You say you are no longer satisfied with men; they make you unhappy. We, connoisseurs of the masculine face, the masculine physique, shall take your men from you then. We will amuse them; we will instruct them; we will embrace them when they weep. Women, you say you wish to live with each other instead of with men. Then go and be with each other. We shall give your men pleasures they have never known because we are foremost men too, and only one man knows how to truly please another man; only one man can understand the depth and feeling, the mind and body of another man.

(Porn has driven a wedge between men and women. It's now saturated with anal and has become trendy. Who would benefit from that being normalized?) Then you have many toxic circles online enabling this behavior filled with guys.

You should read that whole goes into more events that have happened. It was written in the 80's.

[–]Bogos 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean you absolutely could be an ally, and GC, because you live in the same world as women and TRAs. Curious as to whether most men would like trans ideology to continue on course or whether they would also find it repugnant. But the fact that it doesn’t speak to you is significan.

[–]drxc 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As a man (sorry) the old GC boards totally opened my eyes to what women were facing when it came to the demands of the trans movement steamrollering women's rights. It took me a while to understand what the fuss was about but now I'm about as on board as it gets.

I'm also GC in the sense that I beleive in biological sex differences and I think that soceity's notions around how a man or a woman (or boy or girl) ought to think, feel, dress, behave etc. on the basis of their sex are bullshit.

[–]yishengqingwa666 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds about right to me.

[–]yishengqingwa666 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

We all know why he is here.

[–]malleus_maleficarum 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Bingo. he hasn't replied to most of the comments and hasn't moved to the the guys' sub

[–]TheSeventhSense[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lol sorry. I'm assuming she means I'm here to get validation from internet women because somehow I need it. I didn't reply because I had a rather busy Sunday and there's a lot of information here to absorb and comprehend, I don't want to just go off and reply uneducated shit. And I just saw that there was a new gc guys sub made on this site a little bit after I posted this thread so as of now I'll stop posting here and just engage there. Sorry for shifting the scope of the sub.

[–]Cass 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The "one woman has half a man's worth" religion of islam appeared without internet and it's not spreading because of internet. I think people are becoming more unpleasant in general.

The problem with internet is that a few institutions can control where discussion goes. Like reddit censoring this very sub you're in. Yeah, it moved here, but now a much smaller number of people will accidentally find it. And if google will decide to cancel saidit because it offers a platform to political opinions they don't agree with then even less people will end up here. So I think you can be silenced very easily. And if you hold an opinion that is different than the one of the majority then you have to keep silent because 1. you don't know where to go to find people who think like you and 2. you risk being crucified if you speak up

[–]joeytundra 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I bet many gay men and pedophiles are the scripters of MRA content. They have always had a fantasy that men would run into the arms of other men. Why else are lesbians hated on in the LGBT? Wasn't it the lesbian feminists that demanded the removal of NAMBLA out of the gay rights movement? They did say in the past they would infiltrate all male spaces and seduce. If you pay close attention to the content and the shaming techniques you will get the connections between the same ridicule techniques also found in the Overhauling of Straight America.

This is apart of gay history. Lesbians were duped to just merely be the beard to not expose this was all a male domination plot. Under the title "Portray gays as victims, not aggressive challengers" You will see NAMBLA mentioned. This was written in 1987 but most of the techniques including ridiculing terms are used today...except now "transphobic bigot" If you also read Gay Revolutionary which has been claimed as just will see the pedophilia tones to it and how they seek to infiltrate all male spaces where men hang out. I don't think MRA would be excluded from this. Gay men are still men. The silence is deafening for a reason. They allow this abuse towards lesbians because their whole game this whole time was for their version of male dominant world which excludes women. Men are being seduced by porn, groomed by anime porn, groomed in all male spaces. Gay men lust after straight men. There are many articles suggesting just that. It's to their benefit that they get men to turn on women and hate women. They underneath it all see women as a threat to their conquest of straight men.

[–]Feather 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think you're onto something when it comes to internet influences, yes. When I speak to older men about this, many of them are deeply grateful that the internet didn't exist when they were adolescents and in their early twenties. Many of them went through phases where they were depressed or had low self-esteem related to rejection and they got over it because that's what normal people do, but they wonder whether they would have been seduced by RedPill, incel culture etc. if it had been there at the time.

Of course, that's not the entire issue at all. It's one of many issues which I couldn't even begin to describe in a single post.

[–]SameOldBS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

FWIW I think it's also an American thing. When I used to hang out in New York (I'm British) I was struck by how many guys referred to women as picky and gold diggers, etc. I don't think European men think like that much at all. I'm not saying they're less misogynistic, but they definitely seem less bitter.

[–]yishengqingwa666 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Men have always been misogynist parasites and have always hated women. Now they have more platforms to spread and share their hatred of us. This is causing it to increase as older men teach younger men how to abuse and manipulate women. The magic words they can use now are "Karen" and "TERF" and they get woke points and asspats for their misogyny.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the internet/IT spheres have too much power and influence, and they seem dominated by extremist men who are already violent porn addicts to begin with.

[–]jet199 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)