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[–]DogeWalker 14 insightful - 6 fun14 insightful - 5 fun15 insightful - 6 fun -  (19 children)

If “cancel culture” is your number one political issue, you must be doing great financially, lol.

[–]100_percent_truth[S] 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

See that's the problem. I'm thinking much bigger, more longer lasting issues. Once you lose a freedom (in our case, to have our own space, or free speech generally) you almost never get it back.

[–]DogeWalker 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

To me, "cancel culture" just means wokeists whining on the bird website that their favorite songwriter, author, youtuber, or whatever, said something that they disagree with. Don't get me wrong, I dislike cancel culture as a concept, but I don't think it's in the same realm as general free speech concerns. Do you have any examples that would help me understand how they are the same?

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Oh wow, I've watched people track down a woman commenting on a live news Facebook feed about BLM (which isn't the same, but we're still talking cancel culture). They found all of her information over Facebook for her employer, and several people immediately started calling in with complaints with the goal to get her fired. It's pretty damning.

[–]DogeWalker 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I would call that doxxing. I am not defending those actions, but at the same time, words matter. Take this thread for example. What does the Democratic party in the USA have to do with this? Are Democratic Party officials the ones participating in this doxxing?

If we want to be taken seriously about this or any other issue, we should be willing to get specific and to keep thinking critically.

[–]Anna_Nym 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Doxxing is part of cancel culture. It's one of the tools. If you think that cancel culture sounds like something you associate with the conservative right or MRAs, you're not wrong. Both sides use what is now called cancel culture. But the left-affiliated side currently appears to have more institutional capture and so is more dangerous with it. To put it in very broad trends, the right currently seems to only be able to cancel their own. The left can cancel their own as well as those in neutral territory.

The current Democratic Party has tension between its moderate members--including both those who could be called centrists and those who are liberal leftists--and its more firebrand progressive wing. When I look at CA as a bellwhether of what types of problematic policies the firebrand progressive wing may put into place, I do find it troubling. I think that wing is gaining influence over the Party and that the wing is anti-free speech, anti-policies-of-equality, and anti-biological sex. Because this is already the dominant ideology for books, TV, movies, and media, there will be no checks.

[–]DogeWalker 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Ok... maybe the Democrats hav gotten worse. But have the Republicans gotten any better? I don't think so.

Both parties are beholden to corporate interests, that is for sure. But only one party is a machine purpose-built to grind up poor people at the altar of prosperity. Republicans have been pissing on poor folks since at least the days of Reagan. Republicans are equally happy to piss on poor whites as they are to piss on poor non-whites, but they have benefitted from racial divisiveness for at least 100 years.

Because this is already the dominant ideology for books, TV, movies, and media, there will be no checks.

Not trying to attack you personally, but I have to take a stand against this. There's a huge difference between TV and media being shaped by corporate interests, and having actual speech/expression curtailed by the government. Can you give some examples of the censorship you're seeing in the media? I have a hard time remembering anything that would amount to that, happening in recent memory. Just because The New L Word has 18 TIMs playing true and honest lesbians.... so what? You can find most banned books if you have an internet connection. Just don't watch wokeist TV and read instead.

[–]Anna_Nym 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'm not sure what you're arguing with because you seem to have two separate points, and I feel both have been addressed to you clearly in replies.

Point #1 seems to be that cancel culture is not a big deal because it's not government censorship. It is true that it generally isn't government censorship in the US right now. I consider losing employment, social circles, hobbies, dealing with targeted harassment etc. to be a big deal, even if it's not done by the government. I also consider the chilling effect on people's ability to discuss policies and events that affect them to be a big deal.

Point #2 seems to be that cancel culture has nothing to do with the Democratic Party. To this one, I would agree that yes, the Democratic Party is not the primary advocate or perpetrator of cancel culture. However, what we see in progressive areas like CA, Seattle, Portland, and certain House districts is that supporters/advocates of cancel culture are gaining political power through the Democratic Party. This is troubling to me for the reasons already stated.

In terms of examples of media censorship as a result of cancel culture, I am confused how someone could be on this board and have to ask that.

[–]StupidHappyPancakes 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The government actually IS implementing more censorship by harshly penalizing people for saying wrongthink, such as criticism of immigration being a criminal matter in some parts of Europe, or the enforcement of "misgendering" laws that carry heavy fines.

[–]Anna_Nym 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not in the US yet, right? Or are there state laws in some places that do that?

But I agree that looking at the trajectory in other countries, it is very easy to see how the Democratic Party could end up promoting and enforcing laws like that in the US.

[–]DogeWalker 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Out of curiosity regarding point #2, do you live in one of those liberal areas?

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 2 fun14 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

No, cancel culture does the most to harm to people who are NOT financially untouchable. We can't speak out without the risk of losing our livelihood. People on twitter were making a big deal about these privileged rich/tenured people signing the Harper's letter, but that's precisely the point. Only the uncancellable can safely speak out on cancel culture. I'm glad they're doing it on behalf of the rest of us.

That said, Biden all the way. Doesn't stop US politics from being a dumpster fire with no candidate who will stand up for women though. :/

[–]DogeWalker 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Doesn't cancel culture impact celebrities, leaders, and those in powers by definition? One is "cancelled" from the sphere of tweets and pop culture. I don't see how it really impacts the everyday person.

[–]Anna_Nym 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

One is cancelled from one's job, social groups, and any other realm that mass pressure can reach. You are so lucky that you've never seen it in action. It's horrible and cruel and leads to a Stasi-like/Cultural Revolution-like state. Free speech and cancel culture cannot co-exist.

[–]OrneryStruggle 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Personally I'm not doing great financially which is why I don't like the fact that speaking freely - about almost anything on almost any platform in almost any context - can end my career before I ever claw my way out of poverty, probably permanently.

[–]DogeWalker 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I also condemn the extremes of "cancel culture," but I am saying that "cancel culture" is a drop in the bucket compared to real economic concerns facing everyday working people. I don't want people to get banned from twitter or to have to look for a new job... but I also want my grandma to be able to afford her daily medication. In my opinion, making "anti cancel culture" your primary political issue, is shooting ourselves in the foot regarding the more overarching issues that control people's livelihoods in the first place. It makes no sense to me to become a single-issue voter on this issue. What about poor women and their access to health care???

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Cancel culture is NOT a drop in the bucket compared to real economic concerns facing everyday working people, it is one of THE SINGLE BIGGEST CONCERNS facing everyday working people. I am far less afraid of losing my job AND ALL FUTURE JOB PROSPECTS because of my chronic illness, because of an incident of incompetence, or anything else than I am afraid of losing it for my political beliefs.

This isn't some funny, trite issue of a couple people getting banned from twitter and remaking an account, it's about people losing their ENTIRE LIVELIHOODS FOREVER and being scared all the time, no matter who they are talking to and on what platform.

How am I supposed to afford my medications as someone with a disabling chronic illness who works full time if I lose my job and am unhireable later? I can't just go become a day laborer because I'm severely ill, so I have spent over a decade of abject poverty trying to make it in a career field that will allow me to earn money despite being very sick. I have spent the last few years of it scared shitless, with many other people in my position scared shitless. Cancel culture isnt just twitter or jobs either, it's also the government deciding who can access what services. In the liberal utopia of Canada poor immigrant women trying to make a scant living from at-home waxing and epilating services were sued for everything they had and lost their businesses because they didn't want to wax male genitalia. You are the one who is shooting yourself in the foot if you think this isn't a problem. It is one of THE MAIN OVERARCHING ISSUES that controls people's livelihoods right now, full stop.

As a poor woman my access to healthcare is guaranteed by my government, but access to drugs I need to live is not, so I need to keep my job in order to afford them. And I can't keep my job if I get "caught" having my beliefs. I.e., I have to spend my life acting really cautious and lying about issues that are fundamental to me, and I'm never sure when I might get caught anyway because I can't lie all the time to everybody.

[–]DogeWalker 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Ok, and I understand those concerns. I'm just coming from a position where... if we are honestly concerned about this stuff, we must think critically and rationally about it, and not have these kinds of extreme knee-jerk reactions.

If we react without thinking rationally, we're no better than those doing the cancelling.

[–]OrneryStruggle 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's not a knee jerk reaction and I don't know why you think it is. It is a rational reaction to many years of worsening conditions for people like us - and not just people like us in the sense of "GC feminists" but anyone who is not down with the current trendy beliefs. I am an immigrant to a rich western country from a poor "backwards" country and this targets people like me and my family a lot more than it targets upper class western people with liberal arts educations. It is an assault on everything that leftism and liberal western societies in general used to stand for. It is a reinstantiation (but worse, according to my parents) of everything that caused them to leave our home country.

Not cancelling people on principle is in fact always going to be better than doing the cancelling.