I need advice regarding a budding friendship with a woman who identifies as non-binary.

submitted by horizongirl from self.GenderCritical

Hi, I apologize if this is the wrong place to ask about something like this. I just figured this is where I can be sure to find people who share my views. So anyway, there's a woman at work who's really nice and I feel like we're starting to become friends. The thing is, she identifies as non-binary. (She also prefers to be referred to as they, but I doubt that she'll ever see this, or that anyone who knows her will ever see this and figure out I'm talking about her.) I was telling her about Reddit's banwave and the horrible things that have been allowed to stay up, and I decided to test the waters by mentioning that r/GenderCriticalGuys has been allowed to stay up while r/GenderCritical has been banned. As soon as I mentioned r/GenderCritical, she got really upset. She believes that she's been harassed by gender critical feminists. She doesn't correct people at work who refer to her as she, so I doubt it was just that. I don't know if there were women who call themselves gender critical feminists who thought it was okay to just start attacking her (I assume that most of you don't just go up to random trans or non-binary people and start arguing with them, since surely that's counterproductive), or if she told somebody about the harassment and the person she told said that those people were TERFs. If she ever finds out that I agree with gender critical feminists, I'm afraid she'll hate me. I won't blame her, though. It's not her fault she's been brainwashed by society. So my question is, have any of you been friends with trans or non-binary people and managed to keep those friendships after they found out about your beliefs? How did you do it? If she finds out that I agree with you on this issue, what's the best way to explain myself (assuming she'll listen)?

Edit: To be clear, I'm talking about a platonic friendship, not a romantic relationship. Also, why on Earth are people assuming I'm a man? I'm a woman.

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[–]ZeWombat 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If it was me ... Since this is a work situation, I'd steer clear of anything that is going to upset her. You can't separate work from your relationship with her. For me the risk would be too high of her freaking out over something I said, or that someone else said that she is now associating with me.

[–]horizongirl[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't plan to bring it up, ever. I just want to be prepared in case she eventually finds out somehow.

[–]peregrine_throw 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Keep it brief and professional. If she asks, just say you don't like discussing id politics at work. Current HR climate is neither objective nor reasonable (either run by TRAs or covering their own ass), avoid gendertalk. You don't need to be friends, be respectful workmates.

[–]Doobeedoo661 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Assume anyone who displays incongruence with their biological sex suffers from flawed personality traits if not a full blown disorder. Life is too short to have to walk on eggshells in order to stave off disagreement because you need a friend.

This is your place of work, keep it professional and keep potentially difficult colleagues at arms length, you’ll last longer in the workplace.

I’ve worked with a transvestite who mostly kept to themselves, though was eventually fired for absenteeism. He was a chronic hair sucker I considered a likely genius but would never be seen dead with. He respected boundaries.

[–]horizongirl[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

If I understand you correctly, and if what you say is actually what gender critical feminists believe, then it seems that I have drastically misunderstood this whole thing. It sounds like you're saying that there's something wrong with people who don't conform to gender stereotypes. I thought that the whole point of gender critical feminism was that you REJECT the concept of gender, and that a woman can dress and act "masculine" without that making her any less of a woman and a man can dress and act "feminine" without that making him any less of a man because personality and sex aren't connected. I don't see why a woman who has been convinced that she isn't really a woman because her personality doesn't quite fit society's idea of what a woman is necessarily has to have something seriously wrong with her.

[–]Doobeedoo661 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Your work colleague refers to herself an non binary and prefers they/them pronouns = RED FLAG. People can wear what they like despite their biological sex, gender stereotyping, on the other hand, is problematic and is the prime motivation for people who transition. Hope, I’ve made myself clearer.

[–]horizongirl[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

So let me get this straight. People who fall for the TRAs' BS and identify as trans or non-binary all have something fundamentally wrong with them, as opposed to just being victims of the patriarchy and the echo chambers created by the way that social media works?

[–]jet199 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is ridiculous. A lot of GC people are detrans.

[–]horizongirl[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I thought it seemed ridiculous. I was just trying to figure out if that's what Doobeedoo was saying.

[–]threefingersam 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't have the stats but there seem to be various kinds of people who id as trans/non-binary: Some have mental illnesses such as depression/anxiety, some have autism, and others have Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder. In the case of TiMs/transwomen, there's also autogynephilia (AGP) to consider. AGP in short is a fetish where a man is aroused by the idea of being a woman.

For those trans/non-binary people who don't have mental health issues, I reckon peer pressure and TRA propaganda lured them in.

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No way. Trans rights ideology is very wide spread in some social circles, and there's a lot of social conformity going around, too. You have to really go against the grain and risk alienating others in order to NOT go along with it. So no, they don't all have personality disorders or mental illnesses, they're just incorrect about something. Also, the desire to escape gendered norms is totally normal because gender roles suck. I think it's a mistake to try to escape by identifying out of one's sex class, but I can understand the impulse.

[–]horizongirl[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What's with all the people on here who seem to be trying to convince me to hate people who identify as non-binary? Are they trolls? Are they people who are just coming here to spew nonsense to make people think that Reddit was right to ban r/GenderCritical?

[–]Spikygrasspod 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know. Hard to know anything for sure about anonymous posters on the internet, though of course you can check out someone's post history to get an idea whether they're a deliberate troll or not. I would just report anything abusive and upvote anything you find reasonable. Hopefully the shape the sub takes will be mostly civil as a result.

[–]zephyranthes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There IS something wrong with them. They're misogynists. Pertaining to the OP, "nonbinary" means "women are dumb, I'm not dumb, therefore I'm not a woman".

Some people have a very strong desire to look like the opposite sex, for whatever reason, and start chasing it. One could argue that if a man has an overwhelmingly strong desire to wear dresses, it might be better for him personally (but not necessarily for society) to have cosmetic surgery in order to have a chance to look less ridiculous wearing a dress. Many extremely dangerous and harmful types of cosmetic surgery which make bodies look cartoonish and/or monstrous are legal, why ban this? And some men can be mistaken for women with no surgery at all.

This is physical reality: here's a male who is mistaken for a female by everyone, what do we do about him?

But "identity" is bullshit. It is always bullshit. There's no physical reality which corresponds to being "nonbinary". (There are intersex people, but no intersex look.)

That woman identifies as "nonbinary" because she's "not like other girls" -- other girls being you (edit: no, not actually you, OP is a man. Go dilate). In what aspect? Not the physical one, of course, because she still looks like a woman. So she doesn't think like a woman, is that it? But, if she's not a woman, how does she know how women think?

Simple: she thinks she's better than you. Better than all of us. Halfway to an honorary male.

And this is why you'll never be friends.

[–]horizongirl[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Are you TRYING to push me away from gender critical feminism? Because that's what it seems like you're doing. Either that or you're trying to get me to hate people who identify as non-binary. I thought that all the stuff about this being a hate group was a lie.

[–]zephyranthes 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ok troll.

edit, to be more constructive:

Nonbinary identities are misogyny. Identity politics leads to child abuse. The "nonbinary" women who display coping behavior (e.g. desexualize themselves) may be hostages of the patriarchy, worthy of sympathy, but not of trust: hostages can't vouch for terrorists. The gender-conforming genderspecials are simply misogynists willing to betray women and children for clout.

[–]Doobeedoo661 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes.

[–]jet199 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't worry about her thinking you hate her. You can't control other people's feelings. Just do the best you can to show her you don't hate her through your actions.