GC: What is so hard about using people's preferred pronouns?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]BiologyIsReal 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

  1. I don't think stating someone's sex (aka "misgendering") is violence.

  2. I don't even think stating someone's sex is offensive, but a matter a fact and a neutral descriptor. Trans identified people are the ones taking offense where none is intended.

  3. I think it's quite arrogant for some people to expect everyone else's see them as they see themselves regardless of reality.

  4. Someone who is secure on their own identity doesn't need the "validation" of other people, especially, not the "validation" of complete strangers. Someone getting angry about being refered as their own sex is admitting that even they don't believe in this stuff.

  5. Why should I use language I don't believe in? That is I know Buck Angel is not a man, and by using he or him for her, I would be sending the opposite menssage.

  6. Why should I lie to talk about someone who is not in the room? Why should I lie to talk about someone I have not even met?

  7. You cannot change reality through language. Even if everyone in the world used her "prefered pronouns", Buck would still not be a man.

  8. Using "inclusive language" is not a neutral act and it only serves to ofuscate the facts. A newspaper saying "She was convicted for murder and sent to a women's prison" instead of "He was convicted for murder and sent to a women's prison" is shamelessly misleading the public.

  9. We've evolved to recognize other people's sex (and without the need of pulling anyone's pants down). Asking us to ignore our own eyes and to put constant attention to any potential "misgendering" is exhausting and it slows our thoughts. Be honest, genderbender, if not with us, at least with yourself. Even you have to carefully think all those "prefered pronouns" to get them right, aren't you?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't think stating someone's sex (aka "misgendering") is violence.

I don't even think stating someone's sex is offensive, but a matter a fact and a neutral descriptor. Trans identified people are the ones taking offense where none is intended.

Pronouns are not based on biology.

Someone who is secure on their own identity doesn't need the "validation" of other people, especially, not the "validation" of complete strangers. Someone getting angry about being refered as their own sex is admitting that even they don't believe in this stuff.

I am a cis woman and I am secure in my own identity. Yet when people use "she" for me they are validating my identity. Why is different about trans people?

Why should I use language I don't believe in?

Even if you don't believe in this language you can still return the same respect that Buck gives to you. I don't know if Buck can be considered GC but he holds GC beliefs.

You cannot change reality through language. Even if everyone in the world used her "prefered pronouns", Buck would still not be a man.

Buck is a man. He has a beard, deep voice and male levels of testosterone.

Using "inclusive language" is not a neutral act and it only serves to ofuscate the facts. A newspaper saying "She was convicted for murder and sent to a women's prison" instead of "He was convicted for murder and sent to a women's prison" is shamelessly misleading the public.

Using preferred pronouns is absolutely a neutral and respectful act. Most major news and information sources use preferred pronouns, and if they didn't TRAs would boycott them. If TRAs were such a tiny minority of people, we wouldn't have this much influence.

Be honest, genderbender, if not with us, at least with yourself. Even you have to carefully think all those "prefered pronouns" to get them right, aren't you?

I know a few trans people from work and my community. Using their preferred pronouns has never been difficult.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pronouns are not based on biology.

Pronouns that change depending on which sex someone is (like "he" and "she" in English) are indeed based on biology. In Spanish, a group of men and women may be refered to as "ellos" because of the generic masculine, but that still is because there are at least a person of the male sex in the group. That is because sex is an easily observable characteristic we have evolve to recognize; while "gender identity", besides being unobservable, is a modern concept. You won't find references to "gender identity" prior to the mid 20th century. And it's only in the 21st century this new concept became more widespread. You could argue there is an language change going on, but I would point out this "change" is being forced from top to bottom. How can it be a natural change when "misgendering" may get you baned from social media, fired from your work, be the target of bullies, etcetera?

I am a cis woman and I am secure in my own identity. Yet when people use "she" for me they are validating my identity. Why is different about trans people?

Pronouns are not a tool to validate anyone's identity, but a way to ease communication. A text flows much better when you uses pronouns instead of repeating someone's name all the time. That is why "neopronouns" like zim or xim don't stick. Who has time to memorize the "correct" pronouns for each new person they meet?

Even if you don't believe in this language you can still return the same respect that Buck gives to you. I don't know if Buck can be considered GC but he holds GC beliefs.

I don't know how you expect I return respect to someone I've never met or talked to. It's unlikely that Buck reads this forum, so who I would be offending by refering to her sex? Also, I don't think is a given that she would respect me.

Buck is a man. He has a beard, deep voice and male levels of testosterone.

I have a natural deep voice, I've even been mistaken for a boy in the phone/interphone, and yet I'm a woman. We'gone through this already. Female refers to the sex that produces large gametes (egg) and male, to the one who produces small gametes (sperm); and humans cannot change sex. You only named secondary sex characteristics, which are (usually) indicative of someone's sex, but they don't define someone's sex. Besides, you're being inconsist: when asked to define the words "man" and "woman", you claim none of this matters.

Using preferred pronouns is absolutely a neutral and respectful act.

You say so because you believe this stuff and because you don't think it's harmfull to women in spite of the proof we have been providing you.

Most major news and information sources use preferred pronouns, and if they didn't TRAs would boycott them. If TRAs were such a tiny minority of people, we wouldn't have this much influence.

It's not about numbers, but about who holds the power. Women are slightly more than 50% of the population and yet you'll find sexism and misogyny all around the world. Just 1% of the world populations holds most of world's wealth. The whole world is hostage to the nine nuclear powers. In the International Monetary Found the richest countries have the most number of votes ( i.e. it's not a vote per country); guess which countries are always screwed up. And I could keep going on...

If TRAs have gotten so far is because there are powerfull and rich men pushing this stuff up in the West (where it began) and in the rest of the world (though, it helps that English has become a sort of lingua franca and that there is no lack of people parroting whatever the West says).

I may expand this point some other day, but now it's getting late here.