Both: What do you think about the NHS ending the gender-affirmation care model for youth in England?

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Can you point to the part in the SEGM report and/or the NHS where they mention not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender. Coz I missed it.

According to Daily Mail, the new NHS draft guidelines will also discourage the act of children dressing in clothes of the opposite sex.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-11341001/NHS-discourage-social-transitioning-gender-questioning-children.html

IMO, what is damaging to kids is telling them that if they like a particular kind of clothing - or toys - or they have interests and personality traits hat aren't exactly in keeping with the narrow, strict, regressive sex stereotypes widely associated with their sex - and which are confining and chafing to members of both sexes - it means they have the mind, psyche, soul, inner essence, feelings or "gender identity" of the opposite sex and must have somehow been "born in the wrong body."

I agree but most TRAs are not doing this.

Have you read the interim Cass report and other information about this?

I just googled this as I've never heard of it and while I didn't read the entire report I did read the summary of key points.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

True, pronouns, identities, and identity labels chosen and put on kids at an early age are not permanent. But when children adopt an opposite-sex gender identity - or, more likely, they have an opposite-sex gender identity imposed on them by their parents and the other important adults in their lives as has happened to so many people as toddlers, pre-schoolers and early schoolers like Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Kai Shappley, Trinity Neal and Penelope Patterson - and these children's opposite-sex gender identities are announced to everyone they personally know and to the whole world on social media too - it becomes very difficult to nigh impossible for these children to express doubts and reverse course. Many youngsters who are socially transitioned as kids and have been constantly praised and celebrated for being "trans" derive their whole sense of self and sense of self-worth from their special status as "trans" children. And many of the parents of these kids base and obtain their own social identities, sense of self-worth, standing in the world and even their professional careers from being the mums/parents of a "trans child."

Kids like Jackie Green, Jazz Jennings, Kai Shappley, Trinity Neal, Penelope Patterson grow/grew up under huge parental and social pressure to continue identifying as "trans" to keep the adults in their lives, particularly their mums, happy. Many are acutely aware that if they desisted from "identifying as" the opposite sex, then their parents/mothers would be devastated and their parents/mothers would "lose face" and social standing.

I personally think when you become an adult you are personally responsible for yourself and who you have contact with. Many adults who were never trans have parents that are overbearing, but ultimately they stand up to their parents and tell them no. This happens frequently on r/raisedbynarcissists. Many adults also cut contact with toxic parents. This is no different.

What is more likely to happen is parents are not accepting of their childs trans identity. That’s why many kids

They have also been indoctrinated into believing that if they stop "identifying as" the opposite sex, they will be letting down other "trans kids" and "the LGBTQ+ community," fueling "transphobia," and encouraging "transphobic violence" and "hate" that will lead to mass suicides and mass murders of "trans people."

That's not hat happens. If you want to stop identifying as trans, go ahead.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

You initially said

I disagree with the one about not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender.

Which prompted me to ask

Can you point to the part in the SEGM report and/or the NHS [guidance] where they mention not allowing your kid to wear clothes of the opposite gender. Coz I missed it.

To which you have now responded,

According to Daily Mail, the new NHS draft guidelines will also discourage the act of children dressing in clothes of the opposite sex.

Huh? Since when can a story in the Daily Mail be taken as an accurate reflection of what the NHS guidance the SEGM report say?

I asked if you have read the interim Cass report. In response you say

I just googled this as I've never heard of it and while I didn't read the entire report I did read the summary of key points.

No offense, but if you've never heard of the Cass investigation, the Cass report and can't be bothered even to read the interim Cass report in its entirety, then you're just admitting that you are very poorly informed about the issues around "child transition" and aren't curious, interested or caring enough about the unfortunate kids being sucked into gender ideology and being egregiously abused by adults in the pursuit of "child transition" to become fully informed.

You initially said

I also disagree with the advice about not allowing kids to socially transition. Unlike medical interventions, pronouns and identities are not permanent.

In response, I gave a long thoughtful comment illustrating that, as the Cass report says, "socially transitioning" of children is "not a neutral act." Rather it's an act that locks kids into a claimed gender identity at a very early age and makes it very difficult for those kids to desist, dial back and reverse course.

But instead of addressing any of the points I raised about children who are socially transitioned when they are toddlers and very young kids years before puberty of adolescence, you come back with

I personally think when you become an adult you are personally responsible for yourself and who you have contact with.

WTF? What does your view about adults have to do with the pre-pubescent children and minor age adolescents under discussion and at issue here? These kids are all living either in their parents' homes or in state care. They have no choice about who they have contact with. Why are you making it seem that toddlers, pre-schoolers, kids in primary school and young adolescents should be considered just as "personally responsible" for themselves and who they have contact with as full-grown adults?

You deny what is happening, and has happened, to vulnerable children transitioned by their parents by dismissing what I said about the youngsters whom I mentioned by name out of hand as though I what I said has so little merit that it's not worth addressing. Instead, without any evidence you blithely assert

What is more likely to happen is parents are not accepting of their childs trans identity

Then you go on to deny that children transitioned by their parents and the other important adult authority figures in their lives are under any pressure to continue identifying as trans in order to please their parents and the other adults who are invested in these kids claiming to be trans.

That's not hat happens. If you want to stop identifying as trans, go ahead.

How on earth can Kai Shappley at age 11 stop identifying as trans when Kai's entire social identity and Kai's mother's whole life, social identity, social standing and job are based on her being the mother of a "trans child"? Kim Shappley, Kai's mom, has been very open about how starting when Kai was 18 months old, she spent several years repeatedly hitting, yelling at, punishing, praying over, shaming and depriving Kai for liking "girl toys" and "girl clothes" and for "acting girly." Because Kim S is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist and raging homophobe who feared that her toddler son's tastes and behavior indicated he might grow up to be gay - a prospect that filled homophobe mom with horror and panic over what others might think about her.

Now Kim works as a paid "gender activist" who trots Kai around the country and before the cameras so he can be a "trans child" show pony and mouthpiece for canned propaganda written by adult trans activists. How can Kai simply stop identifying as trans now? You really think Kai isn't fully aware that desisting from a trans identity would most likely result in Kai's mom going ballistic and in Kai being beaten, shamed, punished, bullied and deprived by mum and others in Kai's life all over again?

Your flip, callous attitude and total denial of what is happening, and has happened, to vulnerable children transitioned by their parents is gob-smacking.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Huh? Since when can a story in the Daily Mail be taken as an accurate reflection of what the NHS guidance the SEGM report say?

I concede.

In response, I gave a long thoughtful comment illustrating that, as the Cass report says, "socially transitioning" of children is "not a neutral act." Rather it's an act that locks kids into a claimed gender identity at a very early age and makes it very difficult for those kids to desist, dial back and reverse course.

I didn't read the entire Cass report because it's 100 pages but I found the part where they said socially transitioning of children is not a neutral act. That next page says "‘doing nothing’ cannot be considered a neutral act." So if your 4 year old kid who was AMAB repeatedly says "I'm a girl" doing nothing and ignoring it is not a neutral act either.

The other thing is I disagree with the idea that socially transitioning kids into a claimed gender identity at a very early age and makes it very difficult for those kids to desist. Just like a child who was assigned male at birth can repeatedly say "I'm a girl" and ask others to use she/her pronouns, that same child can claim "I'm a boy" and ask others to use he/him pronouns. I don't think kids socially transitioned are any more "locked-in" than kids who are told their gender is their birth sex and others use corresponding pronouns.

How on earth can Kai Shappley at age 11 stop identifying as trans when Kai's entire social identity and Kai's mother's whole life, social identity, social standing and job are based on her being the mother of a "trans child"? Kim Shappley, Kai's mom, has been very open about how starting when Kai was 18 months old, she spent several years repeatedly hitting, yelling at, punishing, praying over, shaming and depriving Kai for liking "girl toys" and "girl clothes" and for "acting girly." Because Kim S is a right-wing Christian fundamentalist and raging homophobe who feared that her toddler son's tastes and behavior indicated he might grow up to be gay - a prospect that filled homophobe mom with horror and panic over what others might think about her.

Now Kim works as a paid "gender activist" who trots Kai around the country and before the cameras so he can be a "trans child" show pony and mouthpiece for canned propaganda written by adult trans activists. How can Kai simply stop identifying as trans now? You really think Kai isn't fully aware that desisting from a trans identity would most likely result in Kai's mom going ballistic and in Kai being beaten, shamed, punished, bullied and deprived by mum and others in Kai's life all over again?

How do you know that Kim repeatedly hits, yells at, punishes and shames Kai? Is there any evidence of this?

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't think kids socially transitioned are any more "locked-in" than kids who are told their gender is their birth sex and others use corresponding pronouns.

I don’t think it is more “locked-in” either, but I think it matters what you think is better too. Many of us feel like it is better for someone to be able to live as their sex and not have to alter their bodies in ways that sterilize them, decrease their life expectancy, and require permanent medication. If someone can successfully be “locked-in” to accepting their sex, that seems like a good outcome. If someone needs to transition to be okay, trust me, no amount of not affirming will make that go away. That person will still be able to transition, but we won’t be creating life-long medical patients from people who would have otherwise desisted. That’s how I feel about it at least. Transition should be treated as the last resort so it’s dangerous to do social transition at early ages because it leads to medicalization almost all the time. That isn’t what we should want for kids and it’s super sus to me that many seem to want that.