QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology

submitted by Chronicity from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If we want there to be toilets for adult human females then we can make that the case, regardless of what word we are using to refer to them.

But none of us on the "GC" side have ever advocated for toilets solely for adult human females, nor would we. We advocate for sex-separate toilets for female humans of all ages. There is no reason to segregate by age in toilet provision. Moreover, most of us believe that it's reasonable and totally acceptable for baby boys and very young boys to be able to use toilets, change rooms, locker rooms, fitting rooms and shelters etc meant for women and girls when accompanied and in the care of their mothers, grans, sisters, female childcare workers.

Why would it be a loss of privacy to share a space with a trans woman but not with a non trans woman? It feels like "privacy" isn't really what you mean here. Any shared space is not private.

There you go again saying words have very different meanings to the meanings that are commonly understood by pretty much everyone else in society. How very Humpty Dumpty of you.

If it were true that "any shared space is not private," that would mean the only private homes are those inhabited by one and only one person. So no dwellings inhabited by families or roommates could be said to be private. No apartment buildings or bank of rowhouses could be said to be private or to contain private residences. And every person who lives alone would be said to no longer live in a private dwelling once he or she allows entry to guests, overnight visitors, cleaners or repair personnel. Similarly, there'd be no such things as private clubs, private schools, private property, private enterprise, the private sector, data privacy, medical privacy, private lives, private relations, privacy rights and so on.

I think you are confusing privacy with solitude. Contrary to what you claim, there are in fact a great many shared spaces that are private and offer all different kinds of privacy.

Moreover, there are many shared spaces which are used in ways that provide privacy to individuals, couples, families, small groups and select populations. For example, hotel rooms, voting booths, private dining rooms in restaurants, private lounges in public airports, private taxis/cars for hire.

When a couple shares a hotel room or takes a bath together, do really believe this makes the hotel room or bathroom they are in together not private? When a group of people gather for a hush-hush meeting behind closed doors to discuss matters they all have promised to keep in confidence, would you really say that the meeting was not private - and that everything said during it cannot possibly be called private because it was shared amongst the group?

Also, it's telling that in response to the statement that when males use spaces like women's restrooms

Women lose privacy, safety (real and perceived), and dignity.

You only commented on the privacy part. Are you conceding that women and girls (the female ones) lose safety and dignity when males use these spaces - or are you indicating that you don't care about the safety and dignity of women and girls (the female ones)?

The reason women and girls lose privacy, safety and dignity when "trans women" use women's communal restrooms and other female spaces is because "trans women" are males. As such, when they use women's restrooms, they behave very differently there to the way females behave.

https://youtu.be/zwUe7-4-_TY

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But none of us on the "GC" side have ever advocated for toilets solely for adult human females, nor would we. We advocate for sex-separate toilets for female humans of all ages

Yes, sorry, this is what I meant

I see your point about privacy, I guess I meant private in the sense of private Vs public. In that sense a private space is one that is shared by oneself and known others, and a public space is open to anyone. What do you feel privacy means in this context then?

Also, it's telling that in response to the statement that when males use spaces like women's restrooms ... You only commented on the privacy part.

Actually I commented on both. The next bit of my comment after that was asking about the safety bit. So yes, of course I care about the safety and dignity of women and girls. It's rather hurtful to suggest that it could be otherwise.

The reason women and girls lose privacy, safety and dignity when "trans women" use women's communal restrooms and other female spaces is because "trans women" are males. As such, when they use women's restrooms, they behave very differently there to the way females behave.

So it's about behaviour? Would you be ok with it then if you could be sufficiently sure that anyone behaving inappropriately would be able to be dealt with?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I see your point about privacy, I guess I meant private in the sense of private Vs public. In that sense a private space is one that is shared by oneself and known others, and a public space is open to anyone. What do you feel privacy means in this context then?

But in countries like the USA, UK and Australia, public spaces like restrooms, clothes-changing rooms, fitting rooms, traditionally have not been "open to anyone." They have been segregated by sex.

This is to provide members of both sexes with privacy, dignity, personal comfort and convenience; and to provide female users with freedom from the male gaze, refuge from unwanted male sexual attention, prying and sexual harassment and advances from males; safety from male sexual assault and "plain" assault and battery by males; and escape from male stalkers and guys who might like to follow around girls and women.

But toilet provisions outside the home are also sex segregated to make these spaces more space- and resource-efficient, more hygienic for reasons of public health, and easier to clean. For example, urinals take up far less space than toilets and cubicles do, they use far less water less water, and can be kept clean with far less effort and less use of cleaning solutions and chemicals than flush toilets and cubles. When males pee standing up in toilets, they have very, very bad aim even in their own homes - and when males use toilets outside the home, they tend to pee all over the place - the seats, the floors, the backsplash, the side walls. Plus, the urine of adult and adolescent males usually has a stronger and worse smell than female urine does. In addition, tucking into the john for a wank is something a lot of teenage boys and men do when at work or at school or in other places outside the home - but this is not behavior females of any age customarily engage in. Finally, when using toilet facilities, the vast majority of males do not wash their hands, which means the door pulls and latches, toilet paper dispensers, paper towel dispensers, sink faucets, soap dispensers and surfaces in general in male communal loos are much more likely to be full of pathogens than female loos are. It's bad enough that men's restrooms are unsanitary; why should women's loos be made just as unsanitary by giving males access to them?

On the other hand, males do not customarily bleed from their genitals the way females do as a matter of course. But what could possibly be the reason for not keeping blood-soaked used menstrual products and the kinds of bloody discharge and blood clots that issue from female bodies contained to only one kind of restroom? Given what teenage boys and men with menstrual fetishes do with sanitary napkins and tampons, mixed-sex restrooms inevitably become hugely unhygienic messes, and they do so quickly. These spaces become so inhospitable for female users that girls and women don't want to or simply cannot use them. It never fails to happen that making restrooms "gender neutral" in the name of inclusivity ends up causing female users to self-exclude.

Another reason that multi-user toilet facilities outside the home are sex segregated is that it's against the religious beliefs and practices of Muslims and orthodox Jews of both sexes to share close, confined quarters - especially close confined spaces where intimate bodily matters like urination, defecation, menstruation and pregnancy are dealt with - and where ritual ablutions as before prayer are conducted too. Girls and women of these faiths in particular cannot use restrooms and other intimate facilities in the presence of men and boys. Forcing Muslim girls and women around the world into situations where unrelated and strange men could see their hair, get glimpses of their exposed skin as they change, or be privy to the fact that they are menstruating would cause them terrible distress and put them in real danger. Girls and women from many Muslim homes would be regarded as bringing shame on themselves and their families for "allowing" themselves to be in close proximity and viewed by males like that - and they'd be at risk of being beaten, confined to their homes or murdered in so-called "honor killings" as a result.

So it's about behaviour? Would you be ok with it then if you could be sufficiently sure that anyone behaving inappropriately would be able to be dealt with?

Why do you seem so keen on making members of the two sexes use toilet facilities and change rooms together? How exactly does this benefit girls and women? How does this benefit boys and men?

I have many male friends and relatives whom I am sure would never behave in a way that is sexually inappropriate, threatening or creepy to me. But for their dignity and privacy and mine I still don't want to have to use the same toilets and change rooms as them when we are out together. Nice as the guys I know are, I still don't think it's appropriate for my adult son, my adult brother, my ex FIL, the teenage boys who live next to me, or any of the men I am friends and colleagues with to change their clothes, shower or get their dicks out to urinate in the same spaces where they will be able to gaze at, listen to and discomfit girls and and women as we bare our bottoms to pee; dress and undress; change pads and products used for female bodily processes like menstruation, menopausal flooding, fibroid bleeding and clotting and bleeding after childbirth, termination or miscarriage; change breast pads and clean up leaks from our breasts; vomit due to pregnancy; or have miscarriages - something a lot of women go through, and usually go through when we are not in our own homes.

Please stop pretending human beings' desire and need for bodily privacy from members of the opposite sex in situations like communal toilets and change rooms is bizarre and beyond understanding. There's nothing peculiar or unreasonable about the fact that I do not want to have to get undressed in the company of my adult son, and I do not feel it's appropriate for me to accompany him into the men's facilities so I can see him use a urinal or take a shower. Even amongst close relatives like mother and son, bodily boundaries are healthy especially at certain ages/stages of life. It's one thing for a woman to breastfeed and be naked with her son when he's a baby or toddler, but it's a totally different situation once he is older.

Why do want to make it seem like anyone ever having any bodily boundaries is always a bad thing?

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why do you seem so keen on making members of the two sexes use toilet facilities and change rooms together?

I'm not. I don't have a problem with sex segregated spaces. They were brought up in the context of addressing the problem with the word "woman" not referring solely to sex, and I was just trying to understand the position better.

ETA: You seem to be repeatedly interpreting my asking questions as me thinking (or pretending to think) that things are bizarre or totally new to me. Generally, I am asking because I want to understand the perspective of the particular person that I am talking to better, not because I haven't got my own perspective and understanding.