QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology

submitted by Chronicity from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I don’t have any power so no one really has to care what I think. For transsexual, a lot of people would use terms like pre-op, post-op, or non-op describe whether someone wanted or had surgery. I feel like non-op are probably different than me, but I don’t really control any language. Transphobia in 2022 just seems like a nonsense idea. I don’t think most current trans identified people now have any idea how normalized all this is compared to years ago. People without any power even talking about having less people transition are being accused actual of genocide. 😂

I feel like if it is just some internal feeling though like no one has to respect it. I know my dysphoria and sense of self is real, but other people might not believe that (and they shouldn’t have to) or just think I was a confused gay man. At least if it is treated as a mental illness with diagnostic criteria, questioning and observation from professionals, and gatekeeping, that makes it something more than just a feeling. Plus, it keeps anyone but people who genuinely can’t function otherwise from pursuing this because hopefully they wouldn’t go through it or would be recognized as being something else. It seems weird that we treat this one set of medical treatments, being done to otherwise healthy bodies, like something people can just choose to do rather than a treatment you receive because it is necessary like most other medical treatment.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I know my dysphoria and sense of self is real too but anti-trans ppl are coming for all of us, transsexual, transgender etc, and we need to stick together.

Defining it based on a medical condition simply allows doctors to control how and when and why we can access transition care. I don't know about you, but I don't trust a doctor to understand who I am. That's why for me it's based on choice, it's based on bodily autonomy--i should not need a reason to be who I am or to transition, I should not have to explain it to someone who's never been dysphoric.

Transphobia in 2022 just seems like a nonsense idea

I'm sorry but you're fucking blind if you think this, there are literally bills in multiple states trying to ban healthcare for those under 18, 19, 21. Adults will be next. Right-wing and GC figures alike calling us a problem to a sane world, trying to make us fit into their worldview that doesn't include transness.

Heck, there r still plenty of garden-variety transphobes too, ppl who call us slurs or act like we're disgusting. My mother is that way.

I used to be like you, I used to think that if only I were nice enough, if only I tried to compromise, that there would be a place for me to be, well, me, in this world. I'm done. I know where I stand and it's with trans people, the right to transition. We don't need anyone's permission.

You can either keep licking their boots and try and escape the rising tide. or you can support others like us and everyone who's trans

I don't care if you ban me, a ban from here is nothing compared to being banned from being trans, which is what will happen if I don't stand up for myself

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What are 'trans' people though? It's not very descriptive, other than people 'whose identity/expression/appearance/presentation does not match their sex (at birth)/assigned sex (at birth)', which doesn't reflect the history or reasoning for why a person transitions--and it's the reasoning for transitioning that makes it impossible to group 'trans people' as people with anything in common beyond a vague concept and superficial appearances.

Transitioning because one struggles to live as a member of their sex because of how they look, act, appear, behave, etc. (in other words, because they struggle with being perceived as members of their (birth/natal/assigned) sex) is a completely different experience to transitioning because one feels uncomfortable in their sex-associated social role, which is a completely different experience to transitioning because one wishes they were the opposite sex for some other reason. Thinking of oneself as the other sex isn't necessarily the same as thinking of oneself as trans, but both could happen simultaneously or not at all.

I wonder if 'trans' should just be considered synonymous with gender nonconformity, because that particular aspect of 'being trans' is what makes people 'transphobic'--it's aversion to gender nonconformity. It gets strange the more one resembles the opposite sex because that means one is more gender-conforming for the opposite sex, so transphobia manifests and is experienced differently, if at all. If one doesn't 'pass', then transphobia via Gender Critical-ism is because of reinforcing and (being seen as) dehumanizing members of the opposite sex, trivializing what it means to be a member of that sex, whereas the transphobia a person who 'passes' would more likely experience would be due to a person's or group of peoples' discomfort with someone not behaving or appearing as one would expect a member of their sex to behave and appear.

Saying trans people need to stick together because we are all the same because we are all trans seems analogous to GC, ideological extremists or anyone else grouping all trans people together as being the same. Both GCs and TRAs seem to try to do that, obfuscating the reasoning for why some of us are the way we are and how we came to live the lives we do: they lump the minority in with the majority and call the majority the minority. This is why people 'peak', because they come to understand that 'trans' does not refer to transsexuals or the classic stereotype of a very feminine gay man, but rather people who claim to identify as the opposite sex in order to escape their problems associated with being that person as opposed to anything to do with sex/gender/roles/etc.

If a male experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman, why would they feel they have more in common with trans people rather than women? I feel like that experience is ignored, downplayed, and/or met with hostility by the majority of trans people (who are not transsexuals) because they cannot comprehend that experience themselves, and there is resentment towards transsexuals like this. Most trans peoples' experiences are not those of transsexuals', so they take the interpretation of their own experience and apply it to transsexuals, then claim that they have the same experience because they don't pass yet they feel they are or should be another sex or gender, so the feeling of dissatisfaction one has with their sex/gender/role is interpreted as being the same, when it really isn't.

We can all support freedom of choice on matters of personal expression or if a person wants to modify or alter their body or appearance, and we can all condemn bigoty and prejudice against trans people, but I have difficulty finding solidarity simply in 'being trans', because that alone is not a universal experience.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If a male experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman, why would they feel they have more in common with trans people rather than women?

But what exactly does a male who believes he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman" really have in common with women (female adults)?

I know males in this position typically say, often insistently, that they "feel they have more in common with" female people than with other males like themselves. But I don't get what this feeling is actually based on. To me, it seems a like an expression of distinctly male wishful thinking and a projection of distinctly male fantasies that come from the distinctly male belief that women are whatever males imagine us to be and say we are.

Seems to me that males who call themselves "transsexuals" could only "feel they have more in common with women" than with other males who adopt some other kind of trans gender identities if they believe women are superficial, passive beings who have no existence apart from the way others perceive us and treat us. It seems based on the belief that we have no inner lives, no depth, no self-consciousness of inhabiting our own bodies, no sensations of our own that come from our distinctly female bodies, and no "lived experience" of going through uniquely female physical processes like menstruation, uterine cramping, PMDD/PMS, ovulation, conception, pregnancy, miscarriage, childbirth, abortion, menopause, gynecological disease, breastfeeding, tokophobia and so on.

It seems based on the belief that women are merely surfaces, objects or "dumb" animals with no material reality apart from the way others perceive, assess, touch, handle, regard and treat us.

I feel like that experience is ignored, downplayed, and/or met with hostility by the majority of trans people (who are not transsexuals) because they cannot comprehend that experience themselves, and there is resentment towards transsexuals like this.

But I and many other women feel that males who describe themselves as transsexuals AND transgender alike all completely overlook, ignore, downplay our experience as female humans beings and treat US with hostility and resentment. Because you/they cannot comprehend OUR own experience. Many refuse to even acknowledge that we have any inner experience whatsoever that is separate and unique and which males cannot appropriate or simulate.

Most trans peoples' experiences are not those of transsexuals', so they take the interpretation of their own experience and apply it to transsexuals, then claim that they have the same experience because they don't pass yet they feel they are or should be another sex or gender, so the feeling of dissatisfaction one has with their sex/gender/role is interpreted as being the same, when it really isn't.

But just because the "transsexual" males you are describing here don't have the same experiences as "most trans people" doesn't mean that the life experience and experience of self of those male "transsexuals" can be assumed to be the same as - or to have any relationship to - the life experience and experience of self of actual women (female people) either.

It seems to me that you keep taking the experience of male "transsexuals" like yourself and projecting it on to those of us who are female in order to make it appear as though your experience as a specific subset of male human beings is essentially the same as the experience of the world's female people - or at least very, very close. When from my perspective, there's a universe of difference so vast that our experiences are basically chalk and cheese.

That doesn't mean I think the experience of male "transsexuals" is worse - or better - than the experience of female people, or vice versa. I just don't think these very different groups of human beings have very much in common and should be lumped together.

Moreover, I resent the way that males with various kinds of "trans" identities continually use factors like the amount of body alterations they have done and their beliefs that they "pass" as the opposite sex so much better than other males with trans identities do as excuses to keep sidling up to the sex divide and insisting in wheedling, manipulative ways that because they are not like those other blokes over there, they with their "special transsexual" trans status have "earned the right" to shoehorn and insinuate themselves into the female category. It all feels like forced teaming to me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But what exactly does a male who believes he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman" really have in common with women (female adults)?

That is what he has in common with women: he experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman. The significance of that is debatable, of course!

I and many other women feel that males who describe themselves as transsexuals AND transgender alike all completely overlook, ignore, downplay our experience as female humans beings and treat US with hostility and resentment. Because you/they cannot comprehend OUR own experience. Many refuse to even acknowledge that we have any inner experience whatsoever that is separate and unique and which males cannot appropriate or simulate.

It’s understandable why you and other women feel that way. We seem to be sharing some feelings in common, though, which I find interesting!

But just because the "transsexual" males you are describing here don't have the same experiences as "most trans people" doesn't mean that the life experience and experience of self of those male "transsexuals" can be assumed to be the same as - or to have any relationship to - the life experience and experience of self of actual women (female people) either.

No, of course not. An assumption like that shouldn’t be automatic, as would be the same as assuming there is no relationship or any sameness of self and/or life experience of women (female people).

It seems to me that you keep taking the experience of male "transsexuals" like yourself and projecting it on to those of us who are female in order to make it appear as though your experience as a specific subset of male human beings is essentially the same as the experience of the world's female people - or at least very, very close. When from my perspective, there's a universe of difference so vast that our experiences are basically chalk and cheese.

I suppose that’s natural with differing perspectives, the same thing might be given more than one explanation or interpretation. It seems like that can even be an issue with facts, in that they’re only accurate from a specific perspective (eg, GC places importance of biology over identity because of femaleness/maleness as functions or biological states of being/existing primarily, but that choice is based on a specific perspective).

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But what exactly does a male who believes he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman" really have in common with women (female adults)?

That is what he has in common with women: he experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman. The significance of that is debatable, of course!

You left out a phrase I was careful to insert, though. You seem to take it for granted that the hypothetical male in this case more likely than not truly "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman." Whereas I suspect it's more likely than not that his own perceptions of how he is being "read" by others are inaccurate. I think he might believe and claim that he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman." But I have a hunch the vast majority of males in this situation are not really perceived as women by nearly as many other people in as many different situations as often or as genuinely as they believe.