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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (21 children)

It is transphobic, it leads to trying to label people if they don't do all the things you think transsexuals should do. Some people transition but don't want surgery, are they transsexuals to you?

Everything we state about ourselves is ultimately a feeling, even if it's based on something in the real world. Because of that, people should believe and respect others' identities.

[–]peakingatthemomentTranssexual (natal male), HSTS 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

I don’t have any power so no one really has to care what I think. For transsexual, a lot of people would use terms like pre-op, post-op, or non-op describe whether someone wanted or had surgery. I feel like non-op are probably different than me, but I don’t really control any language. Transphobia in 2022 just seems like a nonsense idea. I don’t think most current trans identified people now have any idea how normalized all this is compared to years ago. People without any power even talking about having less people transition are being accused actual of genocide. 😂

I feel like if it is just some internal feeling though like no one has to respect it. I know my dysphoria and sense of self is real, but other people might not believe that (and they shouldn’t have to) or just think I was a confused gay man. At least if it is treated as a mental illness with diagnostic criteria, questioning and observation from professionals, and gatekeeping, that makes it something more than just a feeling. Plus, it keeps anyone but people who genuinely can’t function otherwise from pursuing this because hopefully they wouldn’t go through it or would be recognized as being something else. It seems weird that we treat this one set of medical treatments, being done to otherwise healthy bodies, like something people can just choose to do rather than a treatment you receive because it is necessary like most other medical treatment.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I know my dysphoria and sense of self is real too but anti-trans ppl are coming for all of us, transsexual, transgender etc, and we need to stick together.

Defining it based on a medical condition simply allows doctors to control how and when and why we can access transition care. I don't know about you, but I don't trust a doctor to understand who I am. That's why for me it's based on choice, it's based on bodily autonomy--i should not need a reason to be who I am or to transition, I should not have to explain it to someone who's never been dysphoric.

Transphobia in 2022 just seems like a nonsense idea

I'm sorry but you're fucking blind if you think this, there are literally bills in multiple states trying to ban healthcare for those under 18, 19, 21. Adults will be next. Right-wing and GC figures alike calling us a problem to a sane world, trying to make us fit into their worldview that doesn't include transness.

Heck, there r still plenty of garden-variety transphobes too, ppl who call us slurs or act like we're disgusting. My mother is that way.

I used to be like you, I used to think that if only I were nice enough, if only I tried to compromise, that there would be a place for me to be, well, me, in this world. I'm done. I know where I stand and it's with trans people, the right to transition. We don't need anyone's permission.

You can either keep licking their boots and try and escape the rising tide. or you can support others like us and everyone who's trans

I don't care if you ban me, a ban from here is nothing compared to being banned from being trans, which is what will happen if I don't stand up for myself

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

What are 'trans' people though? It's not very descriptive, other than people 'whose identity/expression/appearance/presentation does not match their sex (at birth)/assigned sex (at birth)', which doesn't reflect the history or reasoning for why a person transitions--and it's the reasoning for transitioning that makes it impossible to group 'trans people' as people with anything in common beyond a vague concept and superficial appearances.

Transitioning because one struggles to live as a member of their sex because of how they look, act, appear, behave, etc. (in other words, because they struggle with being perceived as members of their (birth/natal/assigned) sex) is a completely different experience to transitioning because one feels uncomfortable in their sex-associated social role, which is a completely different experience to transitioning because one wishes they were the opposite sex for some other reason. Thinking of oneself as the other sex isn't necessarily the same as thinking of oneself as trans, but both could happen simultaneously or not at all.

I wonder if 'trans' should just be considered synonymous with gender nonconformity, because that particular aspect of 'being trans' is what makes people 'transphobic'--it's aversion to gender nonconformity. It gets strange the more one resembles the opposite sex because that means one is more gender-conforming for the opposite sex, so transphobia manifests and is experienced differently, if at all. If one doesn't 'pass', then transphobia via Gender Critical-ism is because of reinforcing and (being seen as) dehumanizing members of the opposite sex, trivializing what it means to be a member of that sex, whereas the transphobia a person who 'passes' would more likely experience would be due to a person's or group of peoples' discomfort with someone not behaving or appearing as one would expect a member of their sex to behave and appear.

Saying trans people need to stick together because we are all the same because we are all trans seems analogous to GC, ideological extremists or anyone else grouping all trans people together as being the same. Both GCs and TRAs seem to try to do that, obfuscating the reasoning for why some of us are the way we are and how we came to live the lives we do: they lump the minority in with the majority and call the majority the minority. This is why people 'peak', because they come to understand that 'trans' does not refer to transsexuals or the classic stereotype of a very feminine gay man, but rather people who claim to identify as the opposite sex in order to escape their problems associated with being that person as opposed to anything to do with sex/gender/roles/etc.

If a male experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman, why would they feel they have more in common with trans people rather than women? I feel like that experience is ignored, downplayed, and/or met with hostility by the majority of trans people (who are not transsexuals) because they cannot comprehend that experience themselves, and there is resentment towards transsexuals like this. Most trans peoples' experiences are not those of transsexuals', so they take the interpretation of their own experience and apply it to transsexuals, then claim that they have the same experience because they don't pass yet they feel they are or should be another sex or gender, so the feeling of dissatisfaction one has with their sex/gender/role is interpreted as being the same, when it really isn't.

We can all support freedom of choice on matters of personal expression or if a person wants to modify or alter their body or appearance, and we can all condemn bigoty and prejudice against trans people, but I have difficulty finding solidarity simply in 'being trans', because that alone is not a universal experience.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's interesting to me that peakingatthemoment said:

If a male alters their body and is able to pass to people as female they are going to exist in society being treated as a female in most ways

And now Fleurista has said:

If a male experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman, why would they feel they have more in common with trans people rather than women?

To me, these statements illustrate a major difference between the self-concepts of males who "identify as" women/girls and those of us who actually are women/girls. There's a lot more to going through life as a female human being in a female body than just being perceived and treated in certain ways by others.

I honestly don't know anyone female who derives her own sense of her sex solely or mainly from how others perceive her. Even if a female person lives a totally cloistered and solitary life as a hermit or shut-in who never leaves the house, or she only leaves the house covered head to toe face and all in a full-body burka like in Afghanistan, or she looks very "butch" and thus often gets mistaken for a male person by others when out and about in the world, she will still inhabit a body that is distinctly female in the thousands of ways that make human female bodies very different to human male bodies. And in my observation, what inhabiting a distinctly, unmistakably female body feels like to her internally in her own flesh and blood down to the marrow of her bones will be the major source of information that she relies for her knowledge that she is a woman or girl.

I think if those who believe women's self-concepts of sex is entirely or mostly about the perceptions other people have about us actually spent time speaking to a broad cross section women about this, they'd find that women's sense of being female usually has as much or FAR MORE to do with the physical aspects of our bodies that we experience and feel in every fiber of our being internally rather than how other people who observe us from the outside see and treat us.

Yes, the ways other people see and treat us shape and inform our self-concepts. But it is only part of the story of our sense of ourselves and especially our sense of our sex. For many of us, how others see and treat us is actually only a small part of the story insofar as our sense of our own female sex is concerned.

For many of us, our sense of ourselves as girls and women comes largely or even mostly from the physical issues we start dealing with once we start getting periods - which the majority of females start at 11-12 - and breast development, which most girls start even earlier. PMDD, menstrual cramps, heavy bleeding and clotting, period blood leaking all over, pre-menstrual breast tenderness, ovulation twinges/pain, female urethral problems like recurrent cystitis, vaginal yeast overgrowth aka "infections" when under stress, our vulnerability to pregnancy and all the intense worries and dread that come with that, pregnancy, miscarriage, termination, childbirth, breastfeeding, ovarian cysts, fibroids, uteruses perforated by IUDs, a lifetime of breast cancer checks and worries about various kinds of lumps, menopause, osteoporosis, gynecological disease, hysterectomy, bones that are easier to break than male bones, skulls that make us more susceptible to concussion and TBIs than males are, muscles and reflexes that make us slower and less physically powerful than males, female grip strength, a far greater likelihood of experiencing autoimmune diseases and Alzheimer's, a far greater risk of suffering lower limb injuries than males due to doing sports and wearing high heels, etc - these are the kinds of embodied, "lived experiences" that most female human beings rely on for the knowledge we are girls and women.

Catcalls, being groped, being ignored, being sexually preyed upon, getting talked over, getting called "miss" and "ma'am," being mansplained to, being told to swallow your feelings, being passed over for promotion at work, having your ideas stolen from you and credited to someone else, having your health complaints dismissed by doctors, being told you don't matter, being called a slxt, whxre, Karen, pearl clutcher, fat cow, stupid breeder, ugly mxnhater, old bag, a witch and TERF and so on - those sorts of experiences are reminders that we are female, and that in our society females are seen as second-class and second-rate. But for most of us, those kinds of experiences are not where our basic knowledge that we are female comes from. Most of us get our fundamental sense of our selves as female human beings, as girls and women, from a lifetime of inhabiting female bodies every second of every day, year in and year out - not from how others see us and treat us. Nor even from what we ourselves see when we look in glass mirrors.

The embodied experience of being a female human being with female DNA, female cells, female organs, a female immune response and so on is fundamentally different to, and totally separate from, how other people perceive us and how they treat us. It's entirely different to gazing at our physical selves in looking glasses too. These are points which seem totally lost on those who believe that being a girl/woman is simply - and mainly, mostly, entirely - a matter of giving off a certain outward impressions and being viewed and treated by others in particular ways.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

To me, these statements illustrate a major difference between the self-concepts of males who "identify as" women/girls and those of us who actually are women/girls. There's a lot more to going through life as a female human being in a female body than just being perceived and treated in certain ways by others.

What does "identify as" women/girls mean in this context? I do not "identify as" anything, which I have said as much before, and I'm fairly sure Peaking has said the same. Using our statements to frame us as males who "identify as" women/girls and then to extrapolate from that framing seems a bit assumptive and misleading.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have absolutely no idea exactly what males mean when they say they "identify as" women - or what females mean when they say they "identify as" men either. I think you're in a far better position to tell me what this means than the other way around. Not because you personally say you "identify as" a woman - I dunno how you describe yourself - but because I think you have a far better understanding than I do of what it's like to be a person who wishes to be the opposite sex, and specifically what it feels like to be someone male who long has sought - and still seeks? - to be perceived as or like a woman in other people's eyes.

Phrases such as "identify as a woman," "she/he identifies as women" or "Lia Thomas identifies as a woman" are not strings of words I have invented, or that I personally use or would ever use. But believers and peddlers of gender ideology have been saying for years that "a woman is anyone who identifies as a woman" and therefore a male person can be just as much a woman as his mother and grand mothers. And increasingly they say this works the other way around too: "a man is anyone who identifies as a man." (Though I think most of the world is less likely to play along with that fiction than with the fiction that males like Rachel Levine, Char Clymer and Lia Thomas are women just coz they say the magic words "I identify as a woman.")

I personally don't have a gender identity, and the whole idea of people "identifying as" things they/we are not seems ludicrous to me - whether the something they/we are not is a sex, a chronological age, a sexual orientation, a member of political party, a resident of certain country/state/region/city, a practioner of a certain profession or hobby, etc. The nomenclature to "identify as" in a personal sense is totally alien and makes no sense to me.

As I've written here before, the concept of "self identifying" originally referred to colonized, oppressed and marginalized peoples - not to individual persons. Black people in the US came to reject the label "Negro" and instead chose to self-identify as African American or black - and later some would chose to identify as ADOS or POC. In the 1960s and 70s, female adults in workplaces rejected being called "girls" and "working girls" and said we/they wanted be known as women. Similarly, women who worked as administrative assistants aka secretaries, office managers and typists asked not to be referred to by such terms as "my girl," "his girl" or "the office girls" or "the girls." And women attending college/uni said we'd prefer not to be called "co-eds" any more.

But those were group labels. It's only been very recently in history that promoters of gender identity ideology, individual identity politics and the PoMo idea that "people are whatever they say they are" have begun using the concept of self-identity to mean that anyone can pick and choose whatever labels for themselves willy-nilly and to insist that no matter how preposterous and reality-denying some people's claimed self-identities are, they all must be taken seriously, respected, affirmed and seen as "valid" by everyone else in the world. Except, that is, if the person claiming a certain identity is a white woman like Rachel Dolezal.

Using our statements to frame us as males who "identify as" women/girls and then to extrapolate from that framing seems a bit assumptive and misleading.

Then explain what you mean, then. I'm all ears.

BTW, I totally do understand how people can have self-images and body-images in our heads and hearts that stand in stark contrast to who, how and what we actually are in objective reality. When I was a teenager and young woman I saw my own body as fat and ugly when I was actually quite slim and attractive. After I finally came to see my body more realistically, and with self-acceptance and even pride and love, I had a hard time dealing with the marked physical changes that pregnancy and childbirth brought. Now that I am old, I have reached the stage in life where I really don't recognize myself in the mirror any more. In my mind and heart, I still "feel young" in many respects, but my bones and joints don't feel very young - and when I glance in a looking glass, what I see is an old woman who bears little/no resemblance to the woman I once was.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If a male experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman, why would they feel they have more in common with trans people rather than women?

But what exactly does a male who believes he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman" really have in common with women (female adults)?

I know males in this position typically say, often insistently, that they "feel they have more in common with" female people than with other males like themselves. But I don't get what this feeling is actually based on. To me, it seems a like an expression of distinctly male wishful thinking and a projection of distinctly male fantasies that come from the distinctly male belief that women are whatever males imagine us to be and say we are.

Seems to me that males who call themselves "transsexuals" could only "feel they have more in common with women" than with other males who adopt some other kind of trans gender identities if they believe women are superficial, passive beings who have no existence apart from the way others perceive us and treat us. It seems based on the belief that we have no inner lives, no depth, no self-consciousness of inhabiting our own bodies, no sensations of our own that come from our distinctly female bodies, and no "lived experience" of going through uniquely female physical processes like menstruation, uterine cramping, PMDD/PMS, ovulation, conception, pregnancy, miscarriage, childbirth, abortion, menopause, gynecological disease, breastfeeding, tokophobia and so on.

It seems based on the belief that women are merely surfaces, objects or "dumb" animals with no material reality apart from the way others perceive, assess, touch, handle, regard and treat us.

I feel like that experience is ignored, downplayed, and/or met with hostility by the majority of trans people (who are not transsexuals) because they cannot comprehend that experience themselves, and there is resentment towards transsexuals like this.

But I and many other women feel that males who describe themselves as transsexuals AND transgender alike all completely overlook, ignore, downplay our experience as female humans beings and treat US with hostility and resentment. Because you/they cannot comprehend OUR own experience. Many refuse to even acknowledge that we have any inner experience whatsoever that is separate and unique and which males cannot appropriate or simulate.

Most trans peoples' experiences are not those of transsexuals', so they take the interpretation of their own experience and apply it to transsexuals, then claim that they have the same experience because they don't pass yet they feel they are or should be another sex or gender, so the feeling of dissatisfaction one has with their sex/gender/role is interpreted as being the same, when it really isn't.

But just because the "transsexual" males you are describing here don't have the same experiences as "most trans people" doesn't mean that the life experience and experience of self of those male "transsexuals" can be assumed to be the same as - or to have any relationship to - the life experience and experience of self of actual women (female people) either.

It seems to me that you keep taking the experience of male "transsexuals" like yourself and projecting it on to those of us who are female in order to make it appear as though your experience as a specific subset of male human beings is essentially the same as the experience of the world's female people - or at least very, very close. When from my perspective, there's a universe of difference so vast that our experiences are basically chalk and cheese.

That doesn't mean I think the experience of male "transsexuals" is worse - or better - than the experience of female people, or vice versa. I just don't think these very different groups of human beings have very much in common and should be lumped together.

Moreover, I resent the way that males with various kinds of "trans" identities continually use factors like the amount of body alterations they have done and their beliefs that they "pass" as the opposite sex so much better than other males with trans identities do as excuses to keep sidling up to the sex divide and insisting in wheedling, manipulative ways that because they are not like those other blokes over there, they with their "special transsexual" trans status have "earned the right" to shoehorn and insinuate themselves into the female category. It all feels like forced teaming to me.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

But what exactly does a male who believes he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman" really have in common with women (female adults)?

That is what he has in common with women: he experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman. The significance of that is debatable, of course!

I and many other women feel that males who describe themselves as transsexuals AND transgender alike all completely overlook, ignore, downplay our experience as female humans beings and treat US with hostility and resentment. Because you/they cannot comprehend OUR own experience. Many refuse to even acknowledge that we have any inner experience whatsoever that is separate and unique and which males cannot appropriate or simulate.

It’s understandable why you and other women feel that way. We seem to be sharing some feelings in common, though, which I find interesting!

But just because the "transsexual" males you are describing here don't have the same experiences as "most trans people" doesn't mean that the life experience and experience of self of those male "transsexuals" can be assumed to be the same as - or to have any relationship to - the life experience and experience of self of actual women (female people) either.

No, of course not. An assumption like that shouldn’t be automatic, as would be the same as assuming there is no relationship or any sameness of self and/or life experience of women (female people).

It seems to me that you keep taking the experience of male "transsexuals" like yourself and projecting it on to those of us who are female in order to make it appear as though your experience as a specific subset of male human beings is essentially the same as the experience of the world's female people - or at least very, very close. When from my perspective, there's a universe of difference so vast that our experiences are basically chalk and cheese.

I suppose that’s natural with differing perspectives, the same thing might be given more than one explanation or interpretation. It seems like that can even be an issue with facts, in that they’re only accurate from a specific perspective (eg, GC places importance of biology over identity because of femaleness/maleness as functions or biological states of being/existing primarily, but that choice is based on a specific perspective).

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But what exactly does a male who believes he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman" really have in common with women (female adults)?

That is what he has in common with women: he experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman. The significance of that is debatable, of course!

You left out a phrase I was careful to insert, though. You seem to take it for granted that the hypothetical male in this case more likely than not truly "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman." Whereas I suspect it's more likely than not that his own perceptions of how he is being "read" by others are inaccurate. I think he might believe and claim that he "experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman." But I have a hunch the vast majority of males in this situation are not really perceived as women by nearly as many other people in as many different situations as often or as genuinely as they believe.

[–]Chronicity[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I personally think the concept of “gender non-conforming” is as problematic as “trans”. It affirms that idea that there are a set of sex stereotypes members of the class called women or men adhere to by default, and deviating from these stereotypes merits a special term.

How many people truly conform to sex stereotypes, though? I’ve never see the woman who wears makeup and dresses but curses like a sailor and works as a CEO for a construction company called GNC, but why not? If a man went around calling himself GNC simply because he is non-athletic, nurturing, and likes baking, I suspect no one would take that seriously. So it only seems like the most superficial, externally obvious traits qualify someone as GNC. This is an implicit admission that our concept of gender is purely aesthetic. Why should we assign any importance to clothing, grooming, and hairstyles?

I fully support people expressing themselves how they like, regardless of their biological sex. But I don’t believe in labeling people “GNC” just because their expression differs from a set of superficial stereotypes.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

These terms seem mostly unhelpful, because they are so vague--they describe things that are so subjective and manifest so differently as to be seemingly meaningless. We maybe shouldn't ascribe so much meaning or give so much power to expectations regarding clothing, grooming, hairstyles, etc. but people still do. People are discriminated against or treated with prejudice because of such things, which does need some sort of recognition, or else oppression based on stereotypes ascribed to sex is just reinforced, or at least permitted.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We maybe shouldn't ascribe so much meaning or give so much power to expectations regarding clothing, grooming, hairstyles, etc. but people still do. People are discriminated against or treated with prejudice because of such things, which does need some sort of recognition, or else oppression based on stereotypes

Can you give some concrete examples of people who in this day and age are being discriminated against and treated with prejudice in ways that are clearly unlawful - or should be unlawful - in workplaces, schools or commercial establishments because their "clothing, grooming, hairstyles" don't conform to sex stereotypes?

Please cite specific examples of people who due to having clothing, grooming and/or hairstyles that aren't in line with sex stereotypes were refused service in a bar or restaurant or store; were denied admission to schools and entertainment venues; were denied the right to participate in sports; were turned down for a mortgage or other bank loan or service; were turned away from a hospital or urgent care when seeking basic health care; were not allowed to board a commercial airliner or use other public transport... and so on.

I have a strong sense that a lot of people who identify as trans or have some other kind of special gender identities these days felt shamed, bullied and mistreated by family members, school mates and neighborhood bullies when they were growing up - and as adults they take these experiences and use them as the template that shapes their view of, and approach to, the whole world beyond their homes, home towns and school play grounds. I have a feeling that many trans people also take the difficulties they experience in the dating realm and in their relationships with certain family members and friends and project them onto everyone they encounter in every sphere of life. They assume they will face the exact same difficulties, judgments and rejection they got from their mom or dad, and the cold shoulders they got from their teenage crushes, with every one else in the world they encounter. When the reality is, the big outside world often is very different than people imagine it to be. Most people we encounter don't spend time thinking ill of us - most people don't spend any time thinking about us at all.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Please, provide evidence of the so GC extremism you're talking about. And I hope you have better examples than women being rude on the internet when ranting about all this stuff being force on us, or women refusing to play along with "prefered pronouns" or "inclusive language" in general, or women calling out the lack of evidence of what pass as "trans healthcare". And I hope your examples dont' include blaming women for male on male violence. Otherwise, it'd be a dishonest framing if you claim that both sides have extremist when we can provide plenty of evidence of TRAs threathening, doxing, getting fired or physically assaulting dissenting women, and when we can provide plenty of evidence of TRAs advocating for the chemical castration of children and teens, getting male rapist in women's prisons and the legal erasure of sex, and not to mention all the dehumanizing language they want to impose to talk about actual women and actual women's bodies, or how they often work behinds everyone's backs.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not sure if you're referring to this:

analogous to GC, ideological extremists or anyone else grouping all trans people together as being the same.

But if you are, I should have used an oxford comma to distinguish between Gender Critical, and ideological extremism--sorry about that!

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I was refering to that part. And I still don't understand what you meant by that. Why do you think GC and ideological extremists are analogous?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'd like to know why Fleurista is making that claim too. And also on what basis Fleurista believes it's fair and accurate to say that GC are guilty of

grouping all trans people together as being the same.

My perception is that GC are the one group that does the total opposite. GC constantly point out that "all trans people" are NOT the same and therefore should not be lumped together.

GC point out that "trans people" are either male or female, and there is a world of difference between trans people who are male and trans people who are female. GC also point out that the "gender affirming" medical treatments given to males and females who ID as trans have very different impacts on the mental health and mental wellbeing two groups, in large part because of the innumerable physical differences between the two sexes.

GC also point out that that males and females who identity as trans need to be further distinguished from one another not just by their sex, but by their age and the year/era they were born in; by the age and stage of development they were in when they first began to experience distress about sex and gender and an inclination to "identify as" the opposite; by their sexual orientation (when applicable); and by the range of experiences they went through growing up, with special attention to ACEs like child sex abuse, parental divorce, family conflict, bereavement, etc.

GC is the group that points out that girls whose distress over sex and gender and desire to be a boy/man suddenly crops up during puberty of adolescence are totally different to boys who felt a desire to be girls starting in early childhood long before puberty of adolescence - and that these two very distinct groups are vastly different in turn to the legions of males who develop "gender dysphoria" and decide to declare that they are girls/women in adolescence or adulthood principally because doing so brings them enormous male sexual pleasure.

GC are the ones who not only distinguish between two groups of adult and adolescent males who identity as trans like Blanchard did - the homosexual ones and the heterosexual ones with autogynephilia - we say that even amongst these two groups of males there are often marked differences in what is driving them to identity as the opposite sex, which have a lot to do with culture, ethnicity, and where they were born and grew up. GC point out that even within these two groups of adolescent and adult males, there are differences in the benefits, pleasures and seeming solutions to their overall life problems that identifying as girls/women brings them - and differences in the drawbacks and difficulties they experience from devoting their energies and time in, and investing so much of themselves in, the massive undertaking of trying to "live as" and "pass as" women/girls too.

GC is the group that further point out that just as "trans people" shouldn't be lumped together as if they were all one and the same, youngsters shouldn't be lumped together by use of such difference-erasing neologisms as "trans children" and "trans youth." GC are the group that keep pointing out that even when the "gender affirming treatment" prescribed, championed and sold as a panacea and magic cure for all "trans children" is the exact same thing - GnRH analogs aka "puberty blockers" - and it's administered at the same exact age, the treatment has radically different effects on male youngsters versus female youngsters. GC point out that when female children are put on "puberty blockers" for sex and gender distress, the blockers do not lead to improved body image, greater self-acceptance and less anxiety and depression. On the contrary, "puberty blockers" in gender and sex distressed females leads to a worsening of mental health in these specific regards - and to an increase in desire to/thoughts of self-harm, including suicide. Moreover, in females the use of GnRH analogs to block puberty results in permanently stunted height and dangerously low bone density, which in many cases results bone fractures, spinal deformity and degeneration, skeletons that cannot support the girls' bodies, and constant pain.

Seems to me that if anyone is guilty of "grouping all trans people together," it's not GC - rather, it's QT, TRAs, the legions of people who work in the gender vendor industry, and a great many individuals who identify as trans and mistakenly assume that others who identify as trans must be very much like themselves. IIRC, on this very sub Fleurista and other individual posters who call themselves "trans people" have been taken to task rather often by GC posters such as yours truly for not seeming to be aware of, or not paying enough heed to, the fact that many "trans people" are female, and for appearing not to take into account that the life experiences of many "trans people" are drastically different to their own personal life experience and the personal life experience of the small number of other "trans people" they personally know or know about too.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

One more thing. Can you please explain what you mean here:

If one doesn't 'pass', then transphobia via Gender Critical-ism is because of reinforcing and (being seen as) dehumanizing members of the opposite sex, trivializing what it means to be a member of that sex

Because it comes off as though you are saying females are the ones guilty of dehumanizing males, not the other way around, and that we are the ones who are trivializing what it means to be a member of the opposite/male sex. Which sure sounds like DARVO straight out of the MRA playbook. Talk about pot calling the kettle black!

the transphobia a person who 'passes' would more likely experience would be due to a person's or group of peoples' discomfort with someone not behaving or appearing as one would expect a member of their sex to behave and appear.

People of both sexes have been defying sex stereotypes for generations - all without experiencing any "transphobia." *

Chances are, what you perceive as other people's discomfort and choose to call "transphobia" is just projections of your own feelings of discomfort stemming from your own judgments. You might believe that most people experience "discomfort with someone not behaving or appearing as one would expect a member of the their sex to behave and appear" because you yourself have rigid expectations of how others should behave and appear and you are preoccupied with how others appear and behave - and you assume everyone else shares your rigid expectations and preoccupations and is always looking at you and judging you too. But this is not true. The people who have rigid expectations and are hung up on looks and masculinity and femininity and are always going around judging themselves and others based on superficial aspects of dress, appearance and affect are the genderists, not the general public.

In a country like the USA or UK, most people don't pay much attention to how the other people we see out and about dress and behave. And so long as people are not impinging on on the rights of others, breaking laws, making trouble, encroaching where they don't belong, or creating safeguarding concerns, no one much cares about the way others dress and behave.

GC women aren't discomforted by males not adhering to sex stereotypes. What we are discomfited by is males reducing us to cardboard stereotypes, telling us they/you ARE us, and mimicking us in dehumanizing ways for entertainment as in drag, for claimed reasons of "identity" that they demand we play along with and show respect for - or else - as in trans, and for their own sexual fetishes and sick male fantasies. What we are very distressed by are the claims that genderists make, namely that not adhering to the sex stereotypes of one's own sex means a person effectively turns into the opposite sex - and, worse, that males who don't conform to the sex stereotypes for their sex now have a right to horn in on female sports and on the spaces and services meant for female people, such as women's and girls' locker rooms, loos, changing rooms, showers, shelters, dorm rooms, rape crisis centers, prisons, support groups.

*A case in point: this longtime "gender bender" is now constantly called a transphobe by genderists because he says humans can dress and express ourselves however we want, but none of us can change sex: https://youtu.be/2GbgPd3hPSc

In 2022, Marilyn - who now goes by the name Mister Marilyn - is still dressing as behaving as he wants, and no one cares or gives him grief, not even his GC feminist fans like me. Because Mr Marilyn doesn't pretend that his fondness for skirts, makeup and long hair makes him a woman. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/WgO7jVltslQ

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/K-nE5qF4YjU

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

it comes off as though you are saying females are the ones guilty of dehumanizing males, not the other way around, and that we are the ones who are trivializing what it means to be a member of the opposite/male sex. Which sure sounds like DARVO straight out of the MRA playbook. Talk about pot calling the kettle black!

Right? It definitely would if that’s what I were saying, but I’m not sure why you are interpreting my words as implying females being guilty of anything. Transphobia means different things to different people, some not believing it exists at all, while others feel it’s rampant across life; some people think it’s not respecting pronoun requests, others feel it’s about being refused employment on the basis of ‘being trans’. What QT might call transphobia, GC might not, so in this context, from the perspective of QT, transphobia would be whatever ways GC does not acquiesce to QT belief systems–GC is in opposition of reinforcement of stereotypes ascribed to sex, sexism, and misogyny, at least partly because it dehumanizes people of both sexes, reducing them to cardboard cutouts, as you say–these things that are seen as QT exalting and reinforcing. Does that make sense?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, it doesn't make sense. Sorry if I misinterpreted your words. Can you explain what this sentence means:

If one doesn't 'pass', then transphobia via Gender Critical-ism is because of reinforcing and (being seen as) dehumanizing members of the opposite sex, trivializing what it means to be a member of that sex

I honestly don't get what "transphobia via Gender Critical-ism" is. Can you give some examples please.

And please explain how "transphobia via Gender Critical-ism" results in

reinforcing and (being seen as) dehumanizing members of the opposite sex, trivializing what it means to be a member of that sex

BTW, I don't deny that some GC people can be mean and make cutting remarks about the clothes, grooming, hairstyles, etc of some trans people. But you've got to admit that a lot of trans people seem to be "taking the piss" as they say in Britain. Such as all the men with beards claiming to be trans women nowadays. And all the males clearly using their special status as members of the new sacred caste to trample all over women and our basic civil rights. To wit: Danielle Muscato, Jessica Yaniv, Lia Thomas, Ricci Tres, Eddie Izzard... Not to mention all the convicted rapists of women, child molesters and murderers of women and children.

You mention people who are

being refused employment on the basis of ‘being trans’.

Please give some RL examples of this actually happening. I know people with trans identities complain a lot that no one will hire them. Maybe so. But is it because they are trans - or because of some other reason? Or reasons? For example, trans lobby orgs report that more than 60% of "black trans women" in the US today have criminal convictions that caused them to be sentenced to time behind bars (these convictions are not for doing "sex work"). The CDC reports that "black trans women" in the US have a very high rate of HIV infections (in the range of 50%) and most who get their HIV diagnosed are noncompliant with medical care to keep their HIV in check. So if it's hard for many of them to get hired, it might be because they have limited work histories and blemished records.

Also, unfortunately trans people have already gotten a reputation for making unreasonable demands in the workplace, and for filing a lot of HR grievances and lawsuits. When women entered the workforce in large numbers in the 1960s and 70s, women took the opposite tack. We learned to put up with a lot of crap without filing grievances or lawsuits in part because we didn't want to give men any reason to complain that we're difficult to work with.

All that said, it seems "being trans" today is considered an asset in the eyes of many employers that leads to more and better job opportunities. Caitlyn Jenner got hired by FOX News coz Jenner is trans. Rachel Levine got a cabinet post for being trans. Jennifer Finney Boylan has made a whole stellar career out of being trans. Lots of trans people seem today seem to be handed employment opportunities on a silver platter. Hiring someone trans garners employers points in terms of the DEI stats and PR.

Moreover, a number of major corporations now are providing benefits, accommodations and perks for trans people on an order and scale not matched by the benefits, accommodations and perks that any other marginalized group gets. For example, many companies now give trans employees extensive leave for, and cash payments to cover, a host of "gender affirming" cosmetic surgeries - on top of the sick leave and regular benefits that all employees get.

By contrast, women working for these same companies don't get special time off or extra funds to help us deal with issues like menstrual cramps, PMDD, flooding from uterine bleeding and clotting, miscarriage or termination, or for tummy tucks and breast lifts after pregnancies. Some of the same companies that are bending over backwards to fund and support "gender affirming" cosmetic procedures don't even give female employees much or anything in the way of decent paid maternity leave after giving birth. Similarly, though women have been begging for accommodations in the workplace when going through menopause, most companies have told female employees to suck it up. Most workplaces also still make no accommodations to make it easier, safer and more hygienic for breastfeeding women to express and store milk during their shifts.

So the issue is: are trans people really suffering huge amounts of workplace discrimination like they constantly say? Or is this just another area where the extent of "oppression coz trans" has been greatly exagerrated - indeed, largely invented? When trans people claim they are discriminated against like no other group is or has ever been discriminated against, I always wonder: who have they spoken to? Who are they comparing themselves to? Do they know any women, people from racial and linguistic minorities, older people past 50, or people with disabilities, etc who truly have suffered employment discrimination because of immutable physical characteristics?

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If a male experiences the world being perceived by most everyone as a woman, why would they feel they have more in common with trans people rather than women?

Because they do? You might have the experience of dealing with misogyny, but you don't have a lifetime of passive unasked-for socialisation from the moment you were born that girls and women have. Women did not become women by wishing they were women. They simply are. In fact, self-hatred for being female is a common thread in many of their lives. You did not have the biology that interplays with said lifetime of misogyny. The result is distinctly different, which is why male trans people behave so differently, and tend to walk over women and dismiss their complaints of how harmful the patriarchy is (along with associated ideas like brainsex and gender roles).