QT: The most damning contradiction of trans ideology

submitted by Chronicity from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

a woman is a person who identifies with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex.

So now sex is dependent on, or synonymous with, social class? LOL. Oh c'mon, mate. This is just more genderist gibberish. Misogynistic genderist gibberish that I find personally offensive to boot. I bet your mum and gran(s) would find it insulting too.

Since your definition makes being a woman entirely dependent on "identifying with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex," it leaves out vast swathes of the female human inhabitants of earth of adult age who do not "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex." Which is probably the majority of the world's adult human females. Not very "inclusionary" of you.

What word would you use for those of us who are adult humans of the female sex but who do not "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex"? Or don't we deserve a name that describes us and only us?

Your definition is not just exclusionary, it's incredibly ableist. Because it automatically leaves out all the world's adult human females who for various reasons - very low IQ, limited language processing skills, brain injuries, dementia - are incapable of the kinds of cognition required to "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex" - whatever the hell that bunch of misogynistic malarkey is supposed to mean.

At the moment, there are roughly 4 million adult human females in the USA alone with Alzheimer's disease. Most of them are mothers and grandmothers. But due to the nature of AD, they do not have the ability, or they are fast losing the ability, to engage in the kinds of cognition and mental gymnastics required to "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex." In fact, the vast majority would not have a clue about what your genderist gibberish is actually supposed to mean. According to you, these adult human females can't be called women - but males like Lia Thomas and Rachel Levine must be.

FYI: sex and being female aren't specific to humans. Other animals and plants are sexed, too. Female has a meaning that extends across all sexually reproducing species. A doe is a deer of the female sex. A mare is a horse of the female sex. A hen is a chicken of the female sex. A jenny is a donkey of the female sex. A woman is a human adult of the female sex.

Also: when you speak of "social class" and "culturally associated," how are others supposed to know exactly which societies and cultures you mean? And how are we supposed to know at what points/periods in history you're referring to? Fact is, social class is very different in places like the USA, the UK, Belgium, India, Russia, China. Moreover, within longstanding societies, the numbers, kinds and nature of social classes have changed over time. Culture varies markedly from place to place too, and cultures themselves change over time.

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

So now sex is dependent on, or synonymous with, social class?

Not at all. I wasn't talking about sex except to mention that there is a cultural association between womanhood (by the definition that I gave) and the female sex. They are neither dependent on nor synonymous with each other.

What word would you use for those of us who are adult humans of the female sex but who do "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex"?

Those would be men or nonbinary people, depending on how they identify. It seems like you are conceptualising gender identity in a different way to me however if you think that the majority of female people feel this way. In my experience it is a tiny minority.

Your definition is not just exclusionary, it's incredibly ableist. Because it automatically leaves out all the world's adult human females who for various reasons - very low IQ, brain injuries, dementia - are incapable of the kinds of cognition required to "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex" - whatever the hell that bunch of misogynistic malarkey is supposed to mean

Most people have an idea of their gender identity by the age of 2, it's not something that requires some special level of cognitive ability. That said, why do you think it would be a bad thing for people to be "left out" in this regard? There's nothing wrong with not being a woman.

FYI: sex and being female aren't specific to humans

Do you think I'm like 5 years old? I know what sex is.

As to your last point. Yes, culture varies by time and location. As does what it means to be a woman.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

TIL my identity is actually non binary even though I think that’s a nonsense concept, all because I don’t gel with what’s considered feminine in modern Australia.

It’s handy to have Queer theory to tell us who we are.

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

I'm not telling anyone who they are. I'm saying that your gender is defined by how you self identify. If you consider yourself a woman, you are a woman. If you consider yourself a man, you are a man. Otherwise, you are nonbinary. Simple as that. You absolutely don't need to "gel with what's considered feminine" in order to be a woman.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

Twain said

What word would you use for those of us who are adult humans of the female sex but who do "identify with the social class that is culturally associated to the female sex"?

To which you responded

Those would be men or nonbinary people, depending on how they identify. It seems like you are conceptualising gender identity in a different way to me however if you think that the majority of female people feel this way. In my experience it is a tiny minority.

So yeah, you are telling us who we are by applying your QT to the many women who feel zero connection to their socially prescribed idea of a woman whilst recognising that they are adult human females, ergo women.

QT is applied to all, despite their lack of faith in gender identities. You may as well have said we have the Holy Spirit.

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

The idea that adult human females are women is a part of the socially prescribed idea of a woman. If a person considers that they are a woman because they are an adult human female, I would consider that to be identifying as a woman. After all, no one relates to all aspects of womanhood.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If a person considers that they are a woman because they are an adult human female, I would consider that to be identifying as a woman.

Again, what about all the adult females past and present who cannot and could not "consider" these matters because of mental impairments that make it impossible for them to grasp, reflect on and think about their sex, age, species, social status and "identities"? There are quite a few of them around. What about all the adult human females in comas?

It's incredibly ableist of you to keep insisting that being a woman is totally dependent on having fully-developed adult consciousness, cognitive capacities and powers of reasoning - AND also on having the very particular kind of SELF-consciousness that you and some others in today's world have.

You are assuming that the way current-day genderists with full mental faculties who inhabit materially-abundant environments full of mirror glass and surrounded by human-made imagery in certain Western cultures experience and conceptualize yourselves and construct your own self-concepts are the universal ways that all human beings everywhere on earth experience and conceptualize them/ourselves and construct our own self-concepts. This is not true, and believing and insisting that it must be true is cultural imperialism.

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why do you think it's bad for a person to not be a woman? If a person doesn't have a gender identity, what's the problem with recognising that they don't have a gender identity?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Lmao sure, woman also refers to adult female giraffes, some models of Toyotas, and a delectable coffee based beverage.

Darlin you’ve already said what you’ve said. Backtracking and claiming there’s more to the definition you previously provided is some bullshit.

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Lmao sure, woman also refers to adult female giraffes, some models of Toyotas, and a delectable coffee based beverage.

???

I stand by everything that I've said. If you think that there's some inconsistency there let me know what it is and we can discuss it.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

The inconsistency is that you are claiming that definitions don’t exist, rather words are defined as any assortment of ideas any number of people may have, regardless of how related or unrelated those ideas may be.

You have claimed woman means whatever any individual says it means. Is an adult female giraffe a woman or not? It must be according to your methods because I have claimed so.

[–]rubberdubberd00 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

I never claimed that definitions don't exist. But yes, I believe that words are defined based on how people use them, and each person is going to have a slightly different understanding of the meaning of any one word.

You seem to be mixing up meaning and definition. If you have learnt a version of the word "woman" by which an adult female giraffe is a woman then you are not wrong to use the word this way, but this would not change the definition of the word unless there was a significant group of people or contexts in which the word was used this way.

You have claimed woman means whatever any individual says it means

Again, no, I haven't.

If you just claim that the word "woman" means that, that does nothing at all. What you say has no influence whatsoever on the meaning of a word.