GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

The fact that you refer to trans women as "males" will more likely cause people to accuse you of transphobia.

Anyway, Keira Bell is a detransitioned woman and I can understand how how someone like her in appearance and voice could be mistaken for a trans woman.

Also I think its obvious I'm referring to trans women who don't pass.

[–]penelopekitty 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (39 children)

Keira Bell would never be mistaken for a trans woman. She is very obviously a woman.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

How do you know? Even Ovatit can't always tell someone's birth sex. For instance, one thread Why are many gay men prominent TRAs?, Chase Strangio was listed as a gay man.

There's ACLU Lawyer Chase Strangio, currently dead set on ensuring males can play in women's sports, resolving the nonexistent epidemic of murders of trans women, promoting "sex work", and other such noble pursuits in the name of human rights.

OP edited her post after others pointed out Strangio is a trans man.

There is another post which I couldn't find but someone asked if Jeanette Jennings (Jazz's mom) was a trans woman. Another user replied no she just has a large nose.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

Don't you understand that meeting someone in person is a complete different experience than seeing them in a picture? And pictures can be filtered, being in taken in convenient angles and lighting, etcetera. Also, those users may have made a guess based in Chase Strangio and Jeanette Jennings's words or behaviour.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Don't you understand that meeting someone in person is a complete different experience than seeing them in a picture? And pictures can be filtered, being in taken in convenient angles and lighting, etcetera.

Yes I understand. I still believe some trans people are indistuinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

Also, those users may have made a guess based in Chase Strangio and Jeanette Jennings's words or behaviour.

So you can tell someone's sex assigned at birth by their words and behavior? I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

[–]adungitit 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

No. Trends in a patriarchal society are measurable and provable. They are consistent with centuries of misogynistic tradition of stomping on women and treating them as subhuman. Pretending that everything is fair and peachy and egalitarian is a gaslighting load of horseshit.

Gendered socialisation that we are all subject to from birth and receive against our will based on our sex affects our words and behaviour. This shouldn't even be controversial, and has been established over and over and over again in studies. Pretending that this is not the case is, simply put, lying through your teeth. Or are you going to whine about this being misandrist, and then proceed to explain these discrepancies by the fact that men are simply biologically predisposed to beating, killing and oppressing women because lulz boys will be boys? (except trans men apparently)

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

No. Trends in a patriarchal society are measurable and provable.

I agree that trends are measurable and provable. It is proven from numerous studies that women are more supportive of trans rights than men.

According to a PPRI study, 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women. The same study found that 68% of women would feel somewhat or very comfortable with having a close friend who is transgender, compared to 57% of men. That's a significant difference! 52% of women say they would feel somewhat or very comfortable if their child came out as transgender, compared to 44% of men.

A poll found that 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

There is a clear observable and provable trend that women are more likely to support the trans rights than men. Do any poll with equal numbers of random cis men and women and I will bet my life savings women will be more supportive of trans rights than men.

Trans men are men. While I hate the phrase "boys will be boys" because it is almost always used to excuse bad behavior, if I were to use that phrase, trans boys would be included under "boys" unless I specified "cis boys."

[–]Juniperius 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

The polls you cite are invalid, because the people being polled are being lied to by omission. In order for any poll about trans issues to be valid, the people being polled must be informed that approximately 85% of transwomen choose to keep their penises and use them sexually, and that a large majority of transwomen are attracted to women. If the polls were honest about these facts, I can guarantee that the outcomes would be very different

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm sure even if all the participants were informed that 85% of trans women keep their penises and use them sexually, women would still be more likely to support trans rights than men. That's the point.

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, that's not how it works. You can't use invalid polling techniques to come to any kind of conclusion. If the poll is badly conducted, the results could be similar to the actual opinion of the population, or it could be the opposite, you have no way of knowing.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

And why do you think that? What makes you confident that you can speak for women and claim we would all agree with you?

[–]adungitit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It is proven from numerous studies that women are more supportive of trans rights than men.

Sure? This is perfectly expected given our society's neglect and hostility towards women's rights, women's socialisation that forces them to prioritise everyone but themselves, as well as women's general resistence to supremacist ideals and men's sociopathic and narcissistic tendencies that they're rewarded for. People behave in accordance with their upbringing. That's the whole point. Your average woman is supportive anyone and their dog's rights abover her own, and will prioritise men's erections and narcissism because that's how she's been brought up, and because society will punish her heavily if she doesn't keep her head down. Your average dude is against trans people because he doesn't want "trannies" to ruin his perfect patriarchal utopia where anyone who isn't a manly man knows their place. Or he supports trans people because that's the latest porn category he's been jerking off to lately. Same goes for male feminism. It exists only insofar as it allows men to jerk off to it.

By your own logic, you're being gender essentialist by using statistics to claim that women support the trans ideology more than men, since any acknowledgement of these things is "generalising" and "pushing sex stereotypes".

Trans men are men. While I hate the phrase "boys will be boys" because it is almost always used to excuse bad behavior, if I were to use that phrase, trans boys would be included under "boys" unless I specified "cis boys."

Riiiight. Women who identify as non-women just so happen to act in accordance with female socialisation because they're uh...women who are actually men with female brains and female gender identities?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (26 children)

So you can tell someone's sex assigned at birth by their words and behavior? I thought GCs were against sex stereotypes?

I cannot speak for others, I can only make guesses about what they may think, you know? You keep sharing random quotes from Ovarit and asking us to justify or explain them as if we all are a hivemind. But, anyway, some possible answers may be:

  1. Because people don't always live up to their own ideals.

  2. Because being against sex-based stereotypes doesn't mean you have to deny the reality that there are observable trends in how women and men behave. Humans make assumptions based on trends about all kind of things all the time. It's hard-wired on us because in order to survive in the distant past we had to decide in an instant if, for example, that big and scary lion over there was a threat. Getting right of generalizations may not be possible, but that doesn't mean we cannot strive for a fairer society or challenge plain baseless ideas like, for instance, "men are the rational ones, women are the emotional ones".

  3. Because some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism.

But speaking about sex-based stereotypes...

Yes I understand. I still believe some trans people are indistuinguishable from cis people of the same gender.

Could you explain what do you mean by this? What does make two people be the same "gender" if not sex-based stereotypes? If self-identification alone, as you have told us, makes a woman how "transwoman" can be indistinguishable from "cis women"? If self-identifation alone makes a woman, how can a "transwoman" "pass" or not?

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (25 children)

  1. Because people don't always live up to their own ideals.

  2. Because being against sex-based stereotypes doesn't mean you have to deny the reality that there are observable trends in how women and men behave. Humans make assumptions based on trends about all kind of things all the time. It's hard-wired on us because in order to survive in the distant past we had to decide in an instant if, for example, that big and scary lion over there was a threat. Getting right of generalizations may not be possible, but that doesn't mean we cannot strive for a fairer society or challenge plain baseless ideas like, for instance, "men are the rational ones, women are the emotional ones".

  3. Because some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism.

#1 I can understand. #3 I dont understand why some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism. Every study on trans issues finds that women are more supportive of transgenderism than men.

For instance a PPRI study found that 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women. According to a poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

This brings us to point #2. The observable trends show that women are more supportive of transgenderism than men. So if they were acting on observable trends then they would know women are more likely to be advocates of transgenderism than men. But since they deny that they are obviously acting on stereotypes and their own ideas, not observable trends.

Last year my sister and I (both cis women) overheard our dad misgender Rachel Levine while talking on the phone with his brother. As soon as the conversation was finished, we called him out on it and insisted he use "she" for Rachel Levine. He kept telling us that Rachel Levine is a "he" and is a man. My dad is a white, straight, cis, able-bodied and middle class male, basically he fits the definition of "privileged" in the social justice context except for the fact that hes not Christian. We are Jewish. I am a disabled woman. My dad is not supportive of the trans community and its one reason I don't often interact with him.

Women, or people who were assigned female at birth can absolutely be fierce advocates of transgenderism, including those with other marginalized identities like WOC or disabled women.

Could you explain what do you mean by this? What does make two people be the same "gender" if not sex-based stereotypes? If self-identification alone, as you have told us, makes a woman how "transwoman" can be indistinguishable from "cis women"? If self-identifation alone makes a woman, how can a "transwoman" "pass" or not?

Gender is how you identify yourself. My gender is female. I share a gender/sex with Oprah, Laverne Cox, Beyonce, MJ Rodriguez, Rihanna, Jazz Jennings, Kim Kardashian and Taylor Swift. I do not share a sex with Lebron James and Elliot Page.

Some trans women who take hormones and some pass to the point where you wouldn't be able to tell she is trans by looking or at her or hearing her voice. There is no need to use quotation marks.

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Gender is how you identify yourself. My gender is female. I share a gender/sex with Oprah, Laverne Cox, Beyonce, MJ Rodriguez, Rihanna, Jazz Jennings, Kim Kardashian and Taylor Swift. I do not share a sex with Lebron James and Elliot Page.

Wait, are you now claiming that gender and sex are the same thing?

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

For instance a PPRI study found that 51% of men support requiring transgender individuals to use bathrooms corresponding to their assigned sex at birth, compared to 40% of women.

LOL, that PPRI survey you keep trotting out is now three years out of date.

Since early June 2019 when that survey was done, a great deal of information about the negative consequences of opening up female spaces to males based on male gender identity claims has come to light. This information has caused many people who want to "be kind" to people who identify as trans to have second thoughts about the wisdom of throwing all caution to the winds and granting males unfettered access to female spaces so long as they claim to "identify as" or "feel like" women/girls. I don't know exactly where public opinion on the matter of restroom access is now, but I know that a poll from three years ago can't be relied to reflect current thinking.

According to a poll, 59% of men support banning trans women in women's sports compared tp 46% of women. 29% of men oppose banning trans women in women's sports compared to 34% of women.

This second poll you cite is a Politico/Morning Consult online poll done March 6-8, 2021 - a full year before Lia Thomas won a women's NCAA national swimming title at the USA championships. Again, public opinion - and the views of sports policy makers - seem to have changed substantially since then.

A Gallup poll of Americans done two months later, in mid-May 2021, found that 72% of men and 53% of women thought that athletes should play in the sports category of their "birth gender," which presumably was taken to mean their sex.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/350174/mixed-views-among-americans-transgender-issues.aspx

Another poll conducted in June 2022 by The Washington Post and University of Maryland found only 3 in 10 Americans think males who identify as transgender should be allowed to participate in girls' and women's sports. A majority, 55%, said they were opposed to allowing males who identify as girls compete in girls' high school sports. Nearly 60% said they opposed to allowing males who identify as women compete in women's sports at the college and professional levels.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/madelinehalpert/2022/06/14/only-3-in-10-americans-support-trans-athletes-participation-in-female-sports-poll-finds/?sh=5fce3bab26cf

One of the reasons for the disparities in the figures is the way the questions are worded and framed/asked.

Women currently participating in elite-level sports are even more strongly opposed to allowing males to use gender identity claims to horn in on female competition.

In April 2022, the Cyclistes Professionnels Associés (CPA), which represents men’s and women’s professional bike riders, said it had sought the opinions of its female members before making representations to cycling’s governing body, the UCI, about "trans inclusion" policy.

“The CPA women ran a survey a few months ago and over 92 per cent did not agree with [male] trans athletes racing in the women’s peloton,” Marion Clignet, the French triple world champion track cyclist, is quoted as saying by The Telegraph.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nine-tenths-of-female-cyclists-dont-want-to-race-against-trans-women-according-to-survey-d2nhxkn9v

The new transgender and XY DSD inclusion policy recently released by FINA and its supporting documents show the views agreed upon by world-renowned experts that FINA assembled and consulted over the past year in the areas of sports performance, sports physiology, sports law and policy, and international human rights law and policy. FINA also consulted hundreds of swimmers, and paid particular attention to the views of female swimmers - a very different tack taken to the approach of the IOC, which has repeatedly frozen female athletes out of the involvement in decisions about opening up women's competition to males based on their gender identity claims.

I suggest you take the time watch FINA's video presentation explaining its new policy to find out more. It's an interesting presentation. From circa 1:46: https://youtu.be/tiujU5nUq6A?t=6399

As for this:

Last year my sister and I (both cis women) overheard our dad misgender Rachel Levine while talking on the phone with his brother. As soon as the conversation was finished, we called him out on it and insisted he use "she" for Rachel Levine. He kept telling us that Rachel Levine is a "he" and is a man. My dad is a white, straight, cis, able-bodied and middle class male, basically he fits the definition of "privileged" in the social justice context

Oh c'mon. That anecdote you have told several times on various threads about how you and your sister once overheard your father call Rachel Levine "he" and a man and then you bravely "called him out on it" and insisted he use language that you dictated is just pointless virtue signaling which simply goes tp show that you and your sister eavesdrop on your dad's private phone convos, then hector him like scolding busybodies and authoritarian, finger-wagging speech-controllers. Viewing this exchange from the perspective of a parent, I think it would have been reasonable and appropriate for your dad to have responded to your attempts to educate him and get him to "do better" by calling "time out" and telling you and your sister to STFU, MYOB, show some courtesy and respect and get off his back.

But anyways, even if there were a point to that story which could be interpreted as advancing and bolstering your arguments, it still would be totally beside the point on this particular thread.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

You are the same sex as Elliot page, babes.

Both adult human females, no? Elliot did not testosterone herself into becoming male.

[–]GenderbenderShe/her/hers[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Elliot Page did testosterone himself into a male. He is becoming a gorgeous and handsome man.

Also, most trans men don't want to be classed with females and I respect that. I don't want to be classed with gender criticals even though I'm a cis woman. I understand GCs don't want to be classed with trans women but many cis women do. People in your sex category include J.K. Rowling, Julie Bindel and Sheila Jeffreys and I respect that.

[–]Juniperius 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Oh, wow, so you consider a woman with different political opinions to not be the same sex as yourself?! That is the most bizarre thing I think I've heard yet from the QT side. And that's saying something.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Male doesn’t mean whatever you want it to mean. Plenty of TRA even admit this.

Sex categories did not cease to exist to people who feel that their sex category is incorrect.

Every time you ask me to pretend along with you and say male and female mean whatever is convenient to you today, I’ll remind you that while I’m obliged to not ‘misgender’ users here, I’m never going to share your belief system just because it’s what you think is nicest.

Elliot isn’t gonna see anyone disagreeing with her or anyone complimenting her to appear super nice.

[–]BiologyIsReal 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Elliot Page did testosterone himself into a male. He is becoming a gorgeous and handsome man.

That is not how it works. Humans cannot change sexes. All taking exogenous testosterone can do is making some superficial changes (like voice dropping and increasing body hair) and creating a lot of health problems. Page has NOT became a man in the same way a female athlete does NOT become a man for dopping herself.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I dont understand why some GC women have a hard time believing that women could advocate so hard for transgenderism

Because QT seeks the erasure of women's rights for the benefict of men. Because they won't even allow we have a name for ourselves. And, yes, I know you think I'm being hiperbolic here, but just tell me this, genderbender. What have transactivists made for "cis" women? In what way"cis" women" benefit from transgenderism? But don't give me a generic and empty statemente like all women are better off by including everyone. Give me concrete and observable examples.

Moreover, giving recent developments in the US... Do you really American women have any chance about fighting for abortion when many are more worried about saying things like "not only women get pregnant" so not to the offend the "transmen"? Do you really American women have any chance about fighting for abortion when many are more worried about not pissing off the "transwomen" with so much talk about female reproductive organs? You may deny the importance of sex all you want here, but I'm sure you understand very well which sex category is the only that can get pregnant even if you don't won't it out loud. So, who do you think all this ofuscation and walking on eggs shells really benefit?