GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You can’t ever really understand what it is to be a woman

What would it take? No two women have the same perspective and experiences, there are women who do not menstruate, who cannot have children, who have an intersex condition. They're still women. There are surely a very small few who by chance or a superbly safe environment largely escape male violence as children and are suddenly exposed to it as adults.

People's perspectives can change, it's super bioessentialist to say that people born a certain way can only ever have certain mental states and cannot ever understand someone else's perspective. Yeah I do not know what it is like to be raised female but there isn't some universal ideal there, I just had a weird and uncharacteristic childhood. I didn't choose that, I am trying to unlearn and forget and focus on what I actually have chosen. What I experience now is more in line with women than it is with men, men simply aren't bothered by the same concerns I have. If I have to reverse engineer influences on my brain to feel "the right way" that you think women should feel then I will eventually do that it's just a matter of time.

Men get harassed. This is a thing that happens. What specific thing can TW experience that only women experience

Men don't get harassed on the basis of being women. We do. Men don't know I'm trans when they harass me, or talk over me at work. These are all things that my women coworkers also go through.

Men don't even have solidarity with each other, they don't need to; they certainly don't have solidarity with trans women. They either treat us as freaks or tools to fuck or laugh at. I am not a freak or a tool and I relate to the thousands of women before me who have been treated that way.

You choose not to. You can literally opt out of being treated like a woman if you admit you aren’t one. I get why you won’t, but you have that option. Women don’t.

I choose not to because I shouldn't have to be a man to escape shitty treatment, that shitty treatment is exactly the problem! And you do have that option, but I get why you won't. You shouldn't have to. Yeah, trans men do not escape all misogyny, especially medical, but it does lessen one's exposure from what I've heard talking to them.

influx of people siding with you has already passed. That’s proven by the statistic I referenced and others that show a decline annually.

Well trans people are not going away, I don't know exactly what you hope to accomplish. If I'm going to get thrown in jail for taking hrt or wearing a bra someday then it'd be pretty clear to me who's in the right and wrong.

There's no combination of words I could possibly type that would ever prove it to you. It's pointless for me to try. I could change every cell and structure in my body and I'd still have some "male essence" according to y'all. There are women as steadfast in their beliefs as I am in line. You don't call them stereotypically male, you wouldn't ask them to prove to you that say, male violence is bad. I know myself.

Unless you don’t actually pass as well as you think you do.

I pass to nearly everyone except myself. That's just how it is because I'm usually incapable of seeing myself in a positive light. I'm only confident because of what others tell me and the lack of any incident.

inability of trans people to prove the things they claim.

We just don't operate in the same framework at all. I cannot and will not define myself by my biology or sex, you seemingly cannot or will not define me by my social experiences.

Pee where ever else you have to to do that.

There is nowhere else...

Tell the little boy I referenced that safety and comfort are subjective, then

No, I'll tell her she should do what makes her comfortable.

Why should his feelings outweigh the feelings of multiple girls in his school?

No one's feelings outweigh anyone else's, it is everyone's choice what bathroom they want to use or not use. if people don't want to use the same bathroom as a trans person, that is for them to figure out.

Who made it the way it is

I know representation is not always the best but I'd hope that the committee decided was at least half women...and the committee or organization that decide are experts, it's their job to dictate to people who are not as knowledgeable. I'm not knowledgeable or neither are you so idk why we should be on the panel making the rules.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Well trans people are not going away, I don't know exactly what you hope to accomplish. If I'm going to get thrown in jail for taking hrt or wearing a bra someday then it'd be pretty clear to me who's in the right and wrong.

No one is saying trans people to go away. Women are saying that we don't want males in female spaces and sports no matter how the males claim to identify and no matter what alterations males have made to their bodies and appearance.

It's not personal. Most of us have male friends and relatives we love dearly. Some of us have male children. But we still don't want even the males we love and trust- and we know wouldn't hurt a fly or behave like pervs and predators - in women's spaces and sports.

In certain women's spaces like restrooms, locker rooms, fitting rooms, breastfeeding lounges, women's homeless shelters, some prisons, etc exception is made for male infants and young boys who are in the company of their mothers or other female carers. But even there we draw a very strict line. The fact that women and girls don't want to have to deal with our intimate bodily needs and get undressed in front of our male friends and with our tween, teen and adult sons, our fathers, uncles, fathers-in-law etc doesn't mean we hate them.

And in some cases, there is no allowance even for very young boys. We don't allow boys who are not as good as other boys in male sports to play girls' sports. Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invade and dominate in girls' and women's sports.

And please enough with the drama. No one is going to throw you in jail for taking exogenous hormones or wearing a bra.

The underlying issue here is that you seem to be unable to deal with women saying "no" to you. You think women saying "no" is the same as us saying we hate you. You interpret women setting boundaries as an expression of personal animus directed at you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Women are saying that we don't want males in female spaces and sports no matter how the males claim to identify and no matter what alterations males have made to their bodies and appearance.

I'm saying you don't have the right to universally treat trans women as males just because of our biology or birth sex no matter what we've changed about ourselves.

But we still don't want even the males we love and trust

Males aren't deserving of trust and love

Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invad

Can you name one person who's done that, who's not trans and just faking it?

And please enough with the drama. No one is going to throw you in jail for taking exogenous hormones or wearing a bra.

Maybe not but you would if I let people assume I'm a woman in public and don't announce my transness when I go to work or use the bathroom.

You think women saying "no" is the same as us saying we hate you.

You treating me as something I never asked for and that I'm actively in the process of changing, no matter what I do, yes, is the same as saying you hate me. You have personal boundaries like everyone else! but a bathroom is not a personal boundary that you get to exclude an entire group of women from.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Or we didn't used to until males very recently started using gender identity claims to invad

Can you name one person who's done that, who's not trans and just faking it?

How can anyone tell who is legit trans, if there is such a thing, or just faking it?

But that's beside the point. If there are people who are "true trans," it still wouldn't explain or excuse why males who are "true trans" have to invade girls' and women's sport. There is no reason on earth that I can see why male TPs like Cece Telfer, June Eastwood, Lia Thomas, Rachel McKinnon, Terry Miller, Andraya Yearwood, Meghan Youngren, Laurel Hubbard, Chelsea Wolfe, Emily Bridges, Stephanie Barrett, Sasha Jane Lowerson and the hundreds more like them absolutely must participate in women's and girls' sports.

There are many male TPs who think it's wrong for males to use their gender identities to horn in on female sports. There are many female athletes with trans and NB gender identities who have continued to compete in female sports. Female TPs are not participating in male sports in anywhere near the numbers that male TPs are horning in on female sports. And the few who have entered male sports never, ever win. Most don't place or even make it off the bench. Funny that.

In sports, the only time people are ever allowed to move from one category to another is when they go up into a category in which they will have less advantage, not more. So a 14 year old who's really big and strong and fast can step up to the next age rung and compete with 15 and 16 year olds, but a 14 year old who's small and weak and slow can't step down to compete with the younger kids.

Only male TPs and their allies are demanding that male TPs, and they alone, should be able to use their gender identity claims - real or fake, it doesn't matter - to compete in a category of sport where male TPs have massive physical advantages over all other participants. Only male TPs and their allies are demanding that male TPs be given the right to punch down on, lord it over and unfairly trounce those who are naturally smaller, weaker and slower. Then when girls and women complain, male TPs and their allies turn around and call the girls and women names and say girls and women just need to "try harder."

Please explain how you justify this.