GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

But forming your concept of womanhood on harassment, appearance and feelings, in other words, defining womanhood only by what you can try to wedge yourself

It's not only bad experiences! I have a good rapport and friendship with my women coworkers, who are super talented at what they do, and just the experience of being friends with women is very different than when I was a boy. there's less of a gap of understanding. And no I didn't approach them they were the ones who started conversation

Look im sure if I were female a definition based on biology would appeal to me because it's simple and would likely match how I think about myself. I'm not, so I find joy or meaning in the things I actually do experience.

They linked those crimes because they were relevant to the discussion.

How? How do criminals who are trans have an effect on bathrooms?

An opinion or belief is literally a feeling but ok.

Invading other peoples safe spaces is you doing something wrong. You being there is scary regardless of your behavior.

And yet many specifically say that I'm included in "their" bathroom. Like I understand and would not join a private space where it was stated or implied that trans women aren't welcome. Bathrooms don't have any such consensus, and using them is practically required for public life.

And pretending a man can be a woman takes away the entire meaning of woman.

Saying that someone can become or partially live as a woman still requires that "woman" has a meaning apart from that identity or becoming.

it’s not our job to find out where you can pee.

And it's not mine to hurt myself and agonize over this when there's never an issue and not everyone even thinks the way you do. You're not the arbiter of public bathrooms.

go home and pee

Yeah this is definitely realistic when I live 90 minutes from the office.

carry some device to pee in your car if you have to

What?? That's like super degrading wtf

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

  1. Just because you have female friends you relate to doesn’t mean you’re a woman lol. I have more male friends than female

-2. Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things. You literally just said if you were female the definition would work for you. So you admit that you only can’t accept it because it doesn’t apply to you. You admit to wanting to redefine or misuse a word that has a meaning that makes sense even to you just because it doesn’t fit you. That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

-3. So you’ll listen to women who know you (how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space? If they did, some may feel differently). If I personally knew a TW and I trusted them I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Other women in that space may so it’s not ok for your friends to give a man permission. It’s not just my space or your friends space and women allover have been pretty vocal about feeling uncomfortable. It’s not okay for any woman to ignore those women because they personally like you or don’t feel uncomfortable. If there is no consensus, TW should stay out until the consensus is that all women and girls are comfortable. Precisely because those spaces are meant for us to be comfortable and feel safe

-4. I don’t care if it’s degrading. It’s degrading to an entire sex, half of the population, to have us be told that we have no say in our spaces because some men really want to use them. It’s degrading to tell women that womanhood is an identity or can be earned through artificial hormones and surgery. So if you have to figure out how to pee without degrading women and the result is that you feel degraded- oh well. You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things

People believe that I am female. They don't know differently.

That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

If our situations were swapped I doubt you'd hold biology as sacrosanct either. My point is like we all define ourselves in ways that make sense to us. For me the only way I can is by denying my biology.

how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space

I have friends I've met online that later became irl friends and those people know. I keep that friend group separate from people I met irl. They're the ones who I was talking about there sorry to be unclear.

Other women in that space may

May. Like why should I stress or, according to you, literally pee in my car (which I don't have because I commute via public transport to the office on days I can't be remote), when in order for anyone to actually be upset they have to 1. See me in the first place which I try to avoid 2. Figure out that I'm trans and 3. Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

If there is no consensus, TW should stay out

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

we have no say in our spaces

Ofc you have say in your spaces? Bathrooms are a public space with no clear individual or group ownership.

You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

Bc I'm not a man and I won't humiliate myself at work

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

No one would ever say this to lesbian women because lesbians are women, FFS. Lesbians don't have dicks and balls. Lesbians don't have the male gaze, male entitlement, male pushiness, male rape mentality, male body strength, speed and power or male hand span, punching power and grip strength. Lesbians don't have form for menacing women, flashing their genitals and masturbating in public places. Lesbians don't have the ability to impregnate, either.

Also, can you please tell me exactly when and where this panic about lesbians in women's locker rooms occurred? I have been using women's locker rooms since I was a little girl in the late 1950s, and I never, ever heard of this or saw any evidence of this panic. Most of the women's locker rooms I have used have been in the USA. However, I have traveled a fair bit, and in my travels I've never seen or heard this either. But all the places I've ever been there have been lesbians around - and my recollection is that the vast majority of girls and women who are not lesbians themselves don't feel discomfort around lesbians, much less "panic."

I don't deny that lesbians have faced a lot of homophobia and discrimination. I know lots of lesbians, have lots of lesbian friends, and I had lesbian great aunts born at the end of the 19th century - so I have some sense of the prejudices that lesbians have experienced. I just have never seen this particular manifestation of it.

Maybe I'm blocking it out, but I honestly don't recall any time in the last nearly 70 years when there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms. On the contrary, similar to sports, women's locker rooms traditionally have always been a place where women of all sexual orientations got on just fine. One of the best things about the relationship between Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert in the 1970s was that they were fierce rivals on the tennis court, and great pals and sources of mutual support for one another in the locker room - and behind the scenes generally. Which is how it has always been between lesbians and the majority of straight women in the USA my whole life.

Now that I've wracked my memory, and asked a lot of friends if they recall this panic (including a number of lesbians ranging in ages from their 50s to late 80s), I have to say I really resent young trans activists today claiming there used to be a moral panic amongst women about lesbians in women's locker rooms and other female spaces. I especially resent when male TRAs inform me that this is how things used to be. You are smearing whole swathes of the female population much older than you by telling us we all felt and displayed homophobia towards lesbians that a great many of us did not feel or display. My hunch is that you are projecting your own homophobia and prejudice against lesbians onto entire generations of older women. Please stop. It's sexist and presumptuous of you.

Finally, the way you try to make it seem like TW and lesbians have common cause regarding restrooms and locker rooms is more forced teaming.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm pretty young, I'll have to research this more, sorry. I'm glad that you didn't experience it at least! You've lived an interesting life _^

Finally, the way you try to make it seem like TW and lesbians have common cause regarding restrooms and locker rooms is more forced teaming.

We are on the same team @_@

. My hunch is that you are projecting your own homophobia and prejudice against lesbians onto entire generations of older women. Please stop. It's sexist and presumptuous of you

I'm mostly repeating what I've always been told but there's a chance that's incorrect or not as general info. I don't think I am prejudiced against lesbians though? One of my favorite people is a lesbian friend of mine and she's wonderful, her and her gf are couple goals (and yes this person knows I'm trans and I've never shamed her for not being attracted to trans people, that would be v rude). If anything I am a little biased against older people because they're the ones most responsible for the lack of action on climate change today that my generation is going to have to deal with.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for responding. But since you admit you are "pretty young" and that you have no evidence whatsoever for claiming that there was "a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms" in the past, I really have to wonder: how is it that you can so comfortably and confidently say things that malign entire generations of older women? What do you think gives you the right to do this?

Do you think badmouthing entire generations of women like this really helps convince other people that you are a woman yourself, that you know what it's like to be a woman, and you have women's best interests at heart?

One of my favorite people is a lesbian friend of mine and she's wonderful, her and her gf are couple goals (and yes this person knows I'm trans and I've never shamed her for not being attracted to trans people, that would be v rude).

You really think that because you say one of your fave people is a lesbian, and you've never shamed her for not dating or bedding males, it means you're not homophobic against lesbians? Oy vey.

If you want to slag off older generations for climate change, have at it. But please stop spreading total lies about entire generations of older women that paint us all as horrible homophobes who had special hostility towards and were in a panic about lesbians. I actually think earlier generations were generally less homophobic and more accepting of diversity and nonconformity that younger people who've bought into and are peddling gender identity nonsense.

For a picture of what the past was like, watch the movie "Silkwood," based on the true story of anti-nuclear activist Karen Silkwood, who died in 1979 on her way to meet a NY Times reporter with information about nefarious doings in the nuclear waste industry. In the movie, Silkwood, played by Meryl Streep, shares a house with her boyfriend played by Kurt Russell and her best friend, a lesbian named Dolly played by Cher. Neither Silkwood nor her BF or anyone else in the movie has any problem with Dolly being a lesbian. Dolly is presented as a person who is as normal and as quirky as everyone else in the movie. The woman Dolly has a love affair with, a hairdresser played by Diana Scarwid, is like a zillion other "ordinary" women. No one in the film finds them odd or is in a panic about them being around or using women's change rooms. In the 1970s most women had no problem with lesbians. And there were lots of lesbians out and about back then.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Teams share a common goal. It is not possible for transwomen to be on the same team as the very women they call genital fetishists and bigots and other assorted homophobia. It is not possible for transwomen demanding by access to womens amenities and services to be on the same team as women who require male-free spaces and services.

What common goals do you think a transwoman has with a woman?