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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

acknowledged it’s the result of a mental condition and I’m still a man

Yeah I doubt that idk. When it's kinda baked into me that I'm not that.

I can respect women and still have enough self-respect to see that I shouldn't have to cause myself pain in situations where there is no actual issue...if there ever is then I'll leave and probably give myself another UTI the following weeks tbh

What I’m saying is that you said the people who know you’re trans met you online. They were already pro TW in female spaces so this isn’t a big deal

R u saying it's only valid if I liked, convinced them? Because idk I'm p sure that's happened, I used to know a radfem woman who didn't think I should be in the men's. We don't talk anymore tho ig (long story no it wasn't something I did)

Sorry I think I just suck at not taking things personally here. And yeah while I was transitioning I only ever used this one out of the way single-stall bathroom in the basement on campus bc I didn't know what else to do.

Idk maybe listen to your brain in the morning

Oh wow I'm cured haha

Im confused, why do you think this way in the mornings? Like what causes it

Dysphoria? I never pass to myself lol, there are moments where I might be a little bit happier with part of my body like my hair or face but yeah. I can't really look in a mirror without thinking I look like an ugly goblin man. That everything I do is pointless. Etc etc

There's what I feel I really truly am at some core level, and then there's how I feel about my current unfortunate bodily existence. They couldn't be more opposed, really. Sorry I hope that makes sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

It’s baked in only because you have a mental condition though. That’s the issue. If you could prove it based on things that aren’t feelings or appearance it would be different.

You cannot respect women and call yourself one and truly think you are one.

I don’t think it would be valid even if you personally convinced them.

I was joking about listening to your brain lol

Your explanation does make sense. Thank you

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

If there's some biological basis from it would that matter? Like if there's something that showed that trans people have different brains than other people (not saying brains are gendered though) and that our identities emerge from having a brain like that?

You cannot respect women and call yourself one and truly think you are one.

Is there like, no amount of trying to belong I can do, idk

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

It wouldn’t matter because a biological basis would prove that dysphoria exists and we already understand that dysphoria exists. There is a biological basis for knowing what and proving what a woman is but you reject that so it’s odd you’d ask this. I don’t understand how you can ask about a biological basis to prove your point but can’t accept the biological basis that proves mine? We can see brain scans that show dysphoria in trans people. This doesn’t prove they are the sex/gender they wish they were. We can see all types of mental conditions/anomalies through brain scans. So even if you’re sense of identity emerges from that, it doesn’t change material reality.

I would respect and be friends with (I am friends with someone like this) a TW who can accept being a TW and not claim to be a woman. If you are calling yourself a woman (hypothetical TW you, not derrple you) and claiming to identify as a woman, that’s a red flag for me. It lets me know you think womanhood is a sense of identity that anyone can claim and that’s insulting to me. And it makes me wonder if you’d (again hypothetical TW you, not derrple you) take opportunities designated for females from females (like scholarships or jobs etc).

There is no amount of trying that will make a TW belong with women. That doesn’t mean that women and TW have nothing in common on an individual basis or that women shouldn’t be friends with TW or anything like that, it also doesn’t mean that when a woman dislikes a particular TW it’s because they are trans, it just means there’s a barrier you can’t cross and it’s not your fault or my fault or anyone fault that that barrier exists, but the barrier should be respected.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

You're asking for biological proof and that's all I can really give. For now we can transition such that externally we appear to be the other sex. It's incomplete, but it's still a fledgling process of changing reality.

TW who can accept being a TW and not claim to be a woman

Do they have to be open about that irl? Idk why someone would willingly other themselves like that I guess.

it just means there’s a barrier you can’t cross

If I actually believed that sex was immutable idk what I'd be living for really. My entire goal is just to cross that gap of understanding, people shouldn't be limited by their sex like this.

[–]Juniperius 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

people shouldn't be limited by their sex

This is our goal too. People shouldn't be limited by their sex. Women can take on whatever jobs, lovers, social roles, clothing, whatever, doesn't matter, none of it is forbidden to women. Same with men. None of your behaviors, personality traits, aesthetics, preferences, whatever, are wrong for a man to have/want/do/be. No one should be limited by their sex.

And we should have measures in place to make sure that people aren't limited by their sex- just like how we have accessibility and accomodations to help people with disabilities not be limited by them, which are not open to people without those disabilities, we also have accomodations and other measures in place to make sure people aren't limited by their sex. You going into a women's bathroom is like an able person parking in a disabled parking spot. The disabled parking spot is not to limit you, it is to prevent someone else from being limited by a disability you don't have. The women's restroom is not to limit you, it is an accommodation for people who would otherwise be excluded from society -look up how girls in some parts of the world are not able to go to school during their periods if you don't get why this is necessary.

Note that we don't allow accommodations for one group to get in another group's way. For example, we might add a sign language interpreter or captions to accommodate deaf people, but we don't require things to be only in sign language, since that would harm blind people. Similarly, I think you should have some sort of accommodations for your mental illness that makes you reject your sex, but it certainly should not interfere with the accommodations that make it possible for women to take part in society.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You going into a women's bathroom is like an able person parking in a disabled parking spot. The disabled parking spot is not to limit you, it is to prevent someone else from being limited by a disability you don't have. The women's restroom is not to limit you, it is an accommodation for people who would otherwise be excluded from society -look up how girls in some parts of the world are not able to go to school during their periods if you don't get why this is necessary.

Well said! Also, derple seems oblivious to the fact that girls and women are not just more physically exposed and vulnerable when we use toilets due to our female anatomy, we are also physically far less likely to be able to fend off or get away from a male attacker than another male is - and when men rape girls and women, a common consequence we have to worry about and deal with is pregnancy. Derple seems to have no idea how much the fear and dread of unwanted pregnancy being forced on us via rape affects the outlook of girls and women.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

This is our goal too. People shouldn't be limited by their sex. Women can take on whatever jobs, lovers, social roles, clothing, whatever, doesn't matter, none of it is forbidden to women. Same with men. None of your behaviors, personality traits, aesthetics, preferences, whatever, are wrong for a man to have/want/do/be. No one should be limited by their sex.

I agree with all of this <3 none of my personality would be wrong for men to have, I'm just not one of them.

by a disability you don't have

Being a woman is not a disability but in that example I would only be using it after I had also made myself no longer able.

accommodation for people who would otherwise be excluded from society

No like I get why it's necessary but don't trans women also fall into this category?

Similarly, I think you should have some sort of accommodations for your mental illness that makes you reject your sex

Tbh the only one I need is the chance to try and live a normal life without letting other people know about that. It's hard if it were illegal for me to do that in certain situations. Like I've changed my ID because otherwise it's kinda immediately obvious whenever I buy alcohol or rent an apartment. I know GC ppl who want to make changing sex on IDs illegal

[–]Juniperius 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

by a disability you don't have

Being a woman is not a disability but in that example I would only be using it after I had also made myself no longer able.

I didn't say that being a woman is a disability, but in a certain sense you could call maleness and femaleness each a disability in one area coupled with a superpower in another area.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What's the "superpower" supposed to be for male people

[–]Juniperius 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Super strength and speed, of course. Compared to a woman of exactly the same height and weight and level of general health, a man is absurdly strong. Add that to the fact that men are on average 5 inches taller and proportionally heavier.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That’s my point, you reject the actual bio proof that exists but would want us to accept something that doesn’t exist if it did. That doesn’t track to me. If you’re saying when or if a trans person can change sex it’s kind of odd to not accept the biological proof we have currently.

I think the goal of trans people should be acceptance for being trans, not trying to convince the rest of us that you’re the opposite sex than you are. I’d be significantly more comfortable sharing some spaces and using pronouns as a courtesy if this is how things were, personally.

Sex is factually immutable. It just is. I don’t really know what else to say about it.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Nothing about it is immutable. I'm just having this convo too early and I wish I'd been born 100 years from now.

it’s kind of odd to not accept the biological proof we have currently.

I can't accept any proof that would require me to think of myself as a man.

I think the goal of trans people should be acceptance for being trans, not trying to convince the rest of us that you’re the opposite sex than you are

Ik some others who want to live like that, so maybe. But I'm not proud of being trans, I'm really ashamed and embarrassed of it, I would not want to be allowed in somewhere out of pity. That'd just make me feel like more of an other tbh

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

So as of now it is immutable and you’re claiming that it isn’t and that makes no sense to me.

Like you’re saying you’ll just deny reality because you can’t accept it, and I understand why, but it doesn’t change reality.

Your responses are honestly a bit alarming and I don’t want to push you or cause any upset so I think maybe I’ll just stop. I’m honestly concerned by your answers and I can’t do anything for you and I just don’t want to idk. I don’t want you to not be okay because I said something

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean u don't have to do anything for me!

Isn't there a difference between like, something being immutable in theory vs in practice? Like yeah I can't change everything relating to sex right now, I can mainly just change how people perceive me, and body parts like with SRS. I would do more if I could or when it becomes possible.

Sure my general optimist view that transhumanist tech will take off is partly bc I'm still hoping to be saved somehow, but if everyone believed sex was unchangeable, there'd be no one trying to prove that wrong, I guess.

Sorry if my responses are alarming it's not my intention. I am kinda going through a lot rn on top of this.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What I meant is just that I can kind of sense you’re going through a lot, even if it just seems like emotional a lot to me because I don’t know your life lol, and I just don’t want to push you, I guess? I know it’s mostly you responding and I know I have a sharp tongue (errr… finger?) so I just wanted to back off.