GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

  1. Just because you have female friends you relate to doesn’t mean you’re a woman lol. I have more male friends than female

-2. Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things. You literally just said if you were female the definition would work for you. So you admit that you only can’t accept it because it doesn’t apply to you. You admit to wanting to redefine or misuse a word that has a meaning that makes sense even to you just because it doesn’t fit you. That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

-3. So you’ll listen to women who know you (how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space? If they did, some may feel differently). If I personally knew a TW and I trusted them I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Other women in that space may so it’s not ok for your friends to give a man permission. It’s not just my space or your friends space and women allover have been pretty vocal about feeling uncomfortable. It’s not okay for any woman to ignore those women because they personally like you or don’t feel uncomfortable. If there is no consensus, TW should stay out until the consensus is that all women and girls are comfortable. Precisely because those spaces are meant for us to be comfortable and feel safe

-4. I don’t care if it’s degrading. It’s degrading to an entire sex, half of the population, to have us be told that we have no say in our spaces because some men really want to use them. It’s degrading to tell women that womanhood is an identity or can be earned through artificial hormones and surgery. So if you have to figure out how to pee without degrading women and the result is that you feel degraded- oh well. You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things

People believe that I am female. They don't know differently.

That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

If our situations were swapped I doubt you'd hold biology as sacrosanct either. My point is like we all define ourselves in ways that make sense to us. For me the only way I can is by denying my biology.

how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space

I have friends I've met online that later became irl friends and those people know. I keep that friend group separate from people I met irl. They're the ones who I was talking about there sorry to be unclear.

Other women in that space may

May. Like why should I stress or, according to you, literally pee in my car (which I don't have because I commute via public transport to the office on days I can't be remote), when in order for anyone to actually be upset they have to 1. See me in the first place which I try to avoid 2. Figure out that I'm trans and 3. Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

If there is no consensus, TW should stay out

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

we have no say in our spaces

Ofc you have say in your spaces? Bathrooms are a public space with no clear individual or group ownership.

You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

Bc I'm not a man and I won't humiliate myself at work

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Im so sure everyone believes you’re female 🙄 even if they do- you aren’t. So I don’t know why you keep saying this lol

I can’t know for sure and neither can you but if I’m the same person just with dysphoria I’d know I was a man (assuming you mean I’m a TW) and I’d tell people I have a condition treated through transition and I’d prefer if I were referred to as she her because proper pronouns trigger me, if they aren’t comfortable with that I’d ask for neutral pronouns. I would not make my disorder other peoples responsibility not would I invade female spaces. I’d do all of the things I suggested to you. Because I Respect women.

So you found a bunch of tras and act like it means anything that people who already drank the kool aid invited you to invade female spaces? Lmao

Like I said, if you pass you pass and no one knows. Doesn’t make it okay just means nobody knows. But if someone does notice you should remove yourself imo

It was absurd and homophobic because lesbians are women. TW are not. It’s not the same. It’s not transphobic to know you’re not a woman and not want to make you an exception to sex based anything just because that’s what you want.

I already explained why female bathrooms are obviously meant for females. So no, we don’t have a say.

You are literally biologically factually entirely truly absolutely a man lol

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Do you really think you could live like that, just eternally being a doormat and never sticking up for yourself? Like I have limits on what I will and won't do I respect women's personal boundaries and I won't join spaces that clearly aren't meant for me. I'm just done flagellating myself and doing the whole "oh please be nice to me I'm so sorry for being a gender dysphoric male" deal. I used to be so anxious and hesitant about going to the bathroom I probably got a UTI (I say probably because I never went to the doctor about it because it's so embarrassing but idk what else it could have been). It's not sustainable to live that way, hating myself for existing and worrying about whether I'm taking up space. I still worry whenever I go into a bathroom.

So you found a bunch of tras and act like it means anything that people who already drank the kool aid invited you to invade female spaces? Lmao

Noo I mean I have TRA friends but they're mostly online and we don't even agree on everything. Most irl ppl who know don't really know much about trans people but p much everyone thought I was being silly for beating myself up over nothing.

But if someone does notice you should remove yourself imo

Okay yeah that's fine with me and I would

TW are not

That's literally your belief though

You are literally biologically factually entirely truly absolutely a man lol

🙄 You sound like my brain when I brush my teeth in the morning

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I would live like that because I don’t expect a group of people unrelated to me to be sacrificed for my feelings. I would also live like that because it’s the truth of the situation regardless of how that makes me feel. It wouldn’t impact my life other than when I have to pee. I’d make that choice for women because I stand by women and respect them, even the ones I don’t know, even the ones who disagree with me (though they’d have no basis to disagree about me being a TW because I acknowledged it’s the result of a mental condition and I’m still a man)

I never said I’d apologize for it, I said I’d be honest about it and would find people who accepted me for me instead of having to conceal a huge part of myself from them.

What I’m saying is that you said the people who know you’re trans met you online. They were already pro TW in female spaces so this isn’t a big deal

Let me be clear- my comments feel aimed at you specifically because you keep referring to yourself, what I’m saying I’m saying about TW in general, not derrple as a person. If you would leave if you knew someone was uncomfortable but you use those spaces because generally you pass, I don’t really have an issue with that. As I said over and over, if you pass you pass and nobody knows so nobody is uncomfortable. Other TW don’t care if they pass or not. They feel entitled simply because they are TW

It’s not my belief, it’s provable fact though

Idk maybe listen to your brain in the morning

Im confused, why do you think this way in the mornings? Like what causes it? I’m just curious because I’d think based on your comments thst you’d never think this. If it’s too personal I understand

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

acknowledged it’s the result of a mental condition and I’m still a man

Yeah I doubt that idk. When it's kinda baked into me that I'm not that.

I can respect women and still have enough self-respect to see that I shouldn't have to cause myself pain in situations where there is no actual issue...if there ever is then I'll leave and probably give myself another UTI the following weeks tbh

What I’m saying is that you said the people who know you’re trans met you online. They were already pro TW in female spaces so this isn’t a big deal

R u saying it's only valid if I liked, convinced them? Because idk I'm p sure that's happened, I used to know a radfem woman who didn't think I should be in the men's. We don't talk anymore tho ig (long story no it wasn't something I did)

Sorry I think I just suck at not taking things personally here. And yeah while I was transitioning I only ever used this one out of the way single-stall bathroom in the basement on campus bc I didn't know what else to do.

Idk maybe listen to your brain in the morning

Oh wow I'm cured haha

Im confused, why do you think this way in the mornings? Like what causes it

Dysphoria? I never pass to myself lol, there are moments where I might be a little bit happier with part of my body like my hair or face but yeah. I can't really look in a mirror without thinking I look like an ugly goblin man. That everything I do is pointless. Etc etc

There's what I feel I really truly am at some core level, and then there's how I feel about my current unfortunate bodily existence. They couldn't be more opposed, really. Sorry I hope that makes sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

It’s baked in only because you have a mental condition though. That’s the issue. If you could prove it based on things that aren’t feelings or appearance it would be different.

You cannot respect women and call yourself one and truly think you are one.

I don’t think it would be valid even if you personally convinced them.

I was joking about listening to your brain lol

Your explanation does make sense. Thank you

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

If there's some biological basis from it would that matter? Like if there's something that showed that trans people have different brains than other people (not saying brains are gendered though) and that our identities emerge from having a brain like that?

You cannot respect women and call yourself one and truly think you are one.

Is there like, no amount of trying to belong I can do, idk

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

It wouldn’t matter because a biological basis would prove that dysphoria exists and we already understand that dysphoria exists. There is a biological basis for knowing what and proving what a woman is but you reject that so it’s odd you’d ask this. I don’t understand how you can ask about a biological basis to prove your point but can’t accept the biological basis that proves mine? We can see brain scans that show dysphoria in trans people. This doesn’t prove they are the sex/gender they wish they were. We can see all types of mental conditions/anomalies through brain scans. So even if you’re sense of identity emerges from that, it doesn’t change material reality.

I would respect and be friends with (I am friends with someone like this) a TW who can accept being a TW and not claim to be a woman. If you are calling yourself a woman (hypothetical TW you, not derrple you) and claiming to identify as a woman, that’s a red flag for me. It lets me know you think womanhood is a sense of identity that anyone can claim and that’s insulting to me. And it makes me wonder if you’d (again hypothetical TW you, not derrple you) take opportunities designated for females from females (like scholarships or jobs etc).

There is no amount of trying that will make a TW belong with women. That doesn’t mean that women and TW have nothing in common on an individual basis or that women shouldn’t be friends with TW or anything like that, it also doesn’t mean that when a woman dislikes a particular TW it’s because they are trans, it just means there’s a barrier you can’t cross and it’s not your fault or my fault or anyone fault that that barrier exists, but the barrier should be respected.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

You're asking for biological proof and that's all I can really give. For now we can transition such that externally we appear to be the other sex. It's incomplete, but it's still a fledgling process of changing reality.

TW who can accept being a TW and not claim to be a woman

Do they have to be open about that irl? Idk why someone would willingly other themselves like that I guess.

it just means there’s a barrier you can’t cross

If I actually believed that sex was immutable idk what I'd be living for really. My entire goal is just to cross that gap of understanding, people shouldn't be limited by their sex like this.