GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (31 children)

compared us to racists

For forming whole collections of criminals who happen to be trans and treating that as if it's some sort of indictment of trans people as a whole, yes.

reduce womanhood to appearance and feelings

Your womanhood is based on whatever you feel it is, the same as mine x( you say "feelings" as if they are insignificant but I'm trying to talk more broadly about, idk, introspective feelings and thoughts of one's position place and situation in the world. It's not just a trivial thing.

You can’t decide for others what they should or shouldn’t be afraid of

Ofc not, but if they're afraid of me and I'm not doing anything wrong?

system in place that removed my safe spaces to make you feel safe and validated is scary.

Tbf I don't feel safe in any bathroom I just feel way less safe in the men's. I'm just in general scared of people, men moreso.

My identity is my lived reality tho? I don't know why u have to trivialize it, I don't know why me being counted among women means something must be lost from womanhood.

So unless you’re saying don’t let other TW access our spaces

Ofc I give others advice but I can't really control what they do. I used to be so paralyzed with anxiety that I almost got a UTI several times. That's like, unlivable, and I'd love to hear how you think I should have resolved it without continuing to beat myself up when I haven't even done anything wrong, or requiring me to class myself with men.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (30 children)

But forming your concept of womanhood on harassment, appearance and feelings, in other words, defining womanhood only by what you can try to wedge yourself into isn’t misogynistic or narcissistic?

They linked those crimes because they were relevant to the discussion. She didn’t say all TW were criminals and racists don’t even say all poc are criminals so wtf?

I don’t base womanhood on any type of feeling and no matter how many times you accuse us of doing this it won’t be true. Feelings have nothing to do with sex. At all. And women don’t occupy one singular place position or situation in the world.

Invading other peoples safe spaces is you doing something wrong. You being there is scary regardless of your behavior.

Your identity really has nothing to do with women. And pretending a man can be a woman takes away the entire meaning of woman. It renders the word useless because it would describe basically whoever the fuck wants it to describe them. By claiming to be a woman you nullify the word. Your actual lived reality is that of a trans person who happens to be male.

Pee outside, ask for someone to go in the mens room with you, go home and pee, carry some device to pee in your car if you have to, I truly don’t give a fuck anymore just stay away from women. It’s not our job to find out where you can pee. We just don’t want you to pee in spaces designated for females.

You should be classed with men because you’re not a woman and can’t make yourself one regardless of how you feel about it. The world shouldn’t have to bend for you.

Edited a typo

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

But forming your concept of womanhood on harassment, appearance and feelings, in other words, defining womanhood only by what you can try to wedge yourself

It's not only bad experiences! I have a good rapport and friendship with my women coworkers, who are super talented at what they do, and just the experience of being friends with women is very different than when I was a boy. there's less of a gap of understanding. And no I didn't approach them they were the ones who started conversation

Look im sure if I were female a definition based on biology would appeal to me because it's simple and would likely match how I think about myself. I'm not, so I find joy or meaning in the things I actually do experience.

They linked those crimes because they were relevant to the discussion.

How? How do criminals who are trans have an effect on bathrooms?

An opinion or belief is literally a feeling but ok.

Invading other peoples safe spaces is you doing something wrong. You being there is scary regardless of your behavior.

And yet many specifically say that I'm included in "their" bathroom. Like I understand and would not join a private space where it was stated or implied that trans women aren't welcome. Bathrooms don't have any such consensus, and using them is practically required for public life.

And pretending a man can be a woman takes away the entire meaning of woman.

Saying that someone can become or partially live as a woman still requires that "woman" has a meaning apart from that identity or becoming.

it’s not our job to find out where you can pee.

And it's not mine to hurt myself and agonize over this when there's never an issue and not everyone even thinks the way you do. You're not the arbiter of public bathrooms.

go home and pee

Yeah this is definitely realistic when I live 90 minutes from the office.

carry some device to pee in your car if you have to

What?? That's like super degrading wtf

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

  1. Just because you have female friends you relate to doesn’t mean you’re a woman lol. I have more male friends than female

-2. Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things. You literally just said if you were female the definition would work for you. So you admit that you only can’t accept it because it doesn’t apply to you. You admit to wanting to redefine or misuse a word that has a meaning that makes sense even to you just because it doesn’t fit you. That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

-3. So you’ll listen to women who know you (how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space? If they did, some may feel differently). If I personally knew a TW and I trusted them I wouldn’t feel uncomfortable or unsafe. Other women in that space may so it’s not ok for your friends to give a man permission. It’s not just my space or your friends space and women allover have been pretty vocal about feeling uncomfortable. It’s not okay for any woman to ignore those women because they personally like you or don’t feel uncomfortable. If there is no consensus, TW should stay out until the consensus is that all women and girls are comfortable. Precisely because those spaces are meant for us to be comfortable and feel safe

-4. I don’t care if it’s degrading. It’s degrading to an entire sex, half of the population, to have us be told that we have no say in our spaces because some men really want to use them. It’s degrading to tell women that womanhood is an identity or can be earned through artificial hormones and surgery. So if you have to figure out how to pee without degrading women and the result is that you feel degraded- oh well. You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (27 children)

Saying that you can become or live like a woman is false because you have to be a female to do those things

People believe that I am female. They don't know differently.

That’s ridiculous and selfish as fuck but I respect that you admitted this

If our situations were swapped I doubt you'd hold biology as sacrosanct either. My point is like we all define ourselves in ways that make sense to us. For me the only way I can is by denying my biology.

how do they know you’re trans if you aren’t honest? Like do they even know you’re a te in their space

I have friends I've met online that later became irl friends and those people know. I keep that friend group separate from people I met irl. They're the ones who I was talking about there sorry to be unclear.

Other women in that space may

May. Like why should I stress or, according to you, literally pee in my car (which I don't have because I commute via public transport to the office on days I can't be remote), when in order for anyone to actually be upset they have to 1. See me in the first place which I try to avoid 2. Figure out that I'm trans and 3. Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

If there is no consensus, TW should stay out

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

we have no say in our spaces

Ofc you have say in your spaces? Bathrooms are a public space with no clear individual or group ownership.

You could use the mens room. You choose not to.

Bc I'm not a man and I won't humiliate myself at work

[–]Juniperius 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are uncomfortable with me being trans in the same room as them.

You mean, Are uncomfortable with you being male in the same room where they are exposing their genitals with the expectation that it is safe to do so because they believe there will never be any males there.

It's not the trans that's the problem, it's the male.

And it's not being in the same room that's the problem, it's being in a room where we specifically go to be away from males so we can take care of intimate bodily functions.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

Im so sure everyone believes you’re female 🙄 even if they do- you aren’t. So I don’t know why you keep saying this lol

I can’t know for sure and neither can you but if I’m the same person just with dysphoria I’d know I was a man (assuming you mean I’m a TW) and I’d tell people I have a condition treated through transition and I’d prefer if I were referred to as she her because proper pronouns trigger me, if they aren’t comfortable with that I’d ask for neutral pronouns. I would not make my disorder other peoples responsibility not would I invade female spaces. I’d do all of the things I suggested to you. Because I Respect women.

So you found a bunch of tras and act like it means anything that people who already drank the kool aid invited you to invade female spaces? Lmao

Like I said, if you pass you pass and no one knows. Doesn’t make it okay just means nobody knows. But if someone does notice you should remove yourself imo

It was absurd and homophobic because lesbians are women. TW are not. It’s not the same. It’s not transphobic to know you’re not a woman and not want to make you an exception to sex based anything just because that’s what you want.

I already explained why female bathrooms are obviously meant for females. So no, we don’t have a say.

You are literally biologically factually entirely truly absolutely a man lol

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Do you really think you could live like that, just eternally being a doormat and never sticking up for yourself? Like I have limits on what I will and won't do I respect women's personal boundaries and I won't join spaces that clearly aren't meant for me. I'm just done flagellating myself and doing the whole "oh please be nice to me I'm so sorry for being a gender dysphoric male" deal. I used to be so anxious and hesitant about going to the bathroom I probably got a UTI (I say probably because I never went to the doctor about it because it's so embarrassing but idk what else it could have been). It's not sustainable to live that way, hating myself for existing and worrying about whether I'm taking up space. I still worry whenever I go into a bathroom.

So you found a bunch of tras and act like it means anything that people who already drank the kool aid invited you to invade female spaces? Lmao

Noo I mean I have TRA friends but they're mostly online and we don't even agree on everything. Most irl ppl who know don't really know much about trans people but p much everyone thought I was being silly for beating myself up over nothing.

But if someone does notice you should remove yourself imo

Okay yeah that's fine with me and I would

TW are not

That's literally your belief though

You are literally biologically factually entirely truly absolutely a man lol

🙄 You sound like my brain when I brush my teeth in the morning

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

I would live like that because I don’t expect a group of people unrelated to me to be sacrificed for my feelings. I would also live like that because it’s the truth of the situation regardless of how that makes me feel. It wouldn’t impact my life other than when I have to pee. I’d make that choice for women because I stand by women and respect them, even the ones I don’t know, even the ones who disagree with me (though they’d have no basis to disagree about me being a TW because I acknowledged it’s the result of a mental condition and I’m still a man)

I never said I’d apologize for it, I said I’d be honest about it and would find people who accepted me for me instead of having to conceal a huge part of myself from them.

What I’m saying is that you said the people who know you’re trans met you online. They were already pro TW in female spaces so this isn’t a big deal

Let me be clear- my comments feel aimed at you specifically because you keep referring to yourself, what I’m saying I’m saying about TW in general, not derrple as a person. If you would leave if you knew someone was uncomfortable but you use those spaces because generally you pass, I don’t really have an issue with that. As I said over and over, if you pass you pass and nobody knows so nobody is uncomfortable. Other TW don’t care if they pass or not. They feel entitled simply because they are TW

It’s not my belief, it’s provable fact though

Idk maybe listen to your brain in the morning

Im confused, why do you think this way in the mornings? Like what causes it? I’m just curious because I’d think based on your comments thst you’d never think this. If it’s too personal I understand

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

acknowledged it’s the result of a mental condition and I’m still a man

Yeah I doubt that idk. When it's kinda baked into me that I'm not that.

I can respect women and still have enough self-respect to see that I shouldn't have to cause myself pain in situations where there is no actual issue...if there ever is then I'll leave and probably give myself another UTI the following weeks tbh

What I’m saying is that you said the people who know you’re trans met you online. They were already pro TW in female spaces so this isn’t a big deal

R u saying it's only valid if I liked, convinced them? Because idk I'm p sure that's happened, I used to know a radfem woman who didn't think I should be in the men's. We don't talk anymore tho ig (long story no it wasn't something I did)

Sorry I think I just suck at not taking things personally here. And yeah while I was transitioning I only ever used this one out of the way single-stall bathroom in the basement on campus bc I didn't know what else to do.

Idk maybe listen to your brain in the morning

Oh wow I'm cured haha

Im confused, why do you think this way in the mornings? Like what causes it

Dysphoria? I never pass to myself lol, there are moments where I might be a little bit happier with part of my body like my hair or face but yeah. I can't really look in a mirror without thinking I look like an ugly goblin man. That everything I do is pointless. Etc etc

There's what I feel I really truly am at some core level, and then there's how I feel about my current unfortunate bodily existence. They couldn't be more opposed, really. Sorry I hope that makes sense.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

It’s baked in only because you have a mental condition though. That’s the issue. If you could prove it based on things that aren’t feelings or appearance it would be different.

You cannot respect women and call yourself one and truly think you are one.

I don’t think it would be valid even if you personally convinced them.

I was joking about listening to your brain lol

Your explanation does make sense. Thank you

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Yet you would never say this to lesbian women. And people literally did, there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms, and it was absurd and homophobic. On what basis should the default be to assume that everyone is transphobic?

No one would ever say this to lesbian women because lesbians are women, FFS. Lesbians don't have dicks and balls. Lesbians don't have the male gaze, male entitlement, male pushiness, male rape mentality, male body strength, speed and power or male hand span, punching power and grip strength. Lesbians don't have form for menacing women, flashing their genitals and masturbating in public places. Lesbians don't have the ability to impregnate, either.

Also, can you please tell me exactly when and where this panic about lesbians in women's locker rooms occurred? I have been using women's locker rooms since I was a little girl in the late 1950s, and I never, ever heard of this or saw any evidence of this panic. Most of the women's locker rooms I have used have been in the USA. However, I have traveled a fair bit, and in my travels I've never seen or heard this either. But all the places I've ever been there have been lesbians around - and my recollection is that the vast majority of girls and women who are not lesbians themselves don't feel discomfort around lesbians, much less "panic."

I don't deny that lesbians have faced a lot of homophobia and discrimination. I know lots of lesbians, have lots of lesbian friends, and I had lesbian great aunts born at the end of the 19th century - so I have some sense of the prejudices that lesbians have experienced. I just have never seen this particular manifestation of it.

Maybe I'm blocking it out, but I honestly don't recall any time in the last nearly 70 years when there was a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms. On the contrary, similar to sports, women's locker rooms traditionally have always been a place where women of all sexual orientations got on just fine. One of the best things about the relationship between Martina Navratilova and Chris Evert in the 1970s was that they were fierce rivals on the tennis court, and great pals and sources of mutual support for one another in the locker room - and behind the scenes generally. Which is how it has always been between lesbians and the majority of straight women in the USA my whole life.

Now that I've wracked my memory, and asked a lot of friends if they recall this panic (including a number of lesbians ranging in ages from their 50s to late 80s), I have to say I really resent young trans activists today claiming there used to be a moral panic amongst women about lesbians in women's locker rooms and other female spaces. I especially resent when male TRAs inform me that this is how things used to be. You are smearing whole swathes of the female population much older than you by telling us we all felt and displayed homophobia towards lesbians that a great many of us did not feel or display. My hunch is that you are projecting your own homophobia and prejudice against lesbians onto entire generations of older women. Please stop. It's sexist and presumptuous of you.

Finally, the way you try to make it seem like TW and lesbians have common cause regarding restrooms and locker rooms is more forced teaming.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm pretty young, I'll have to research this more, sorry. I'm glad that you didn't experience it at least! You've lived an interesting life _^

Finally, the way you try to make it seem like TW and lesbians have common cause regarding restrooms and locker rooms is more forced teaming.

We are on the same team @_@

. My hunch is that you are projecting your own homophobia and prejudice against lesbians onto entire generations of older women. Please stop. It's sexist and presumptuous of you

I'm mostly repeating what I've always been told but there's a chance that's incorrect or not as general info. I don't think I am prejudiced against lesbians though? One of my favorite people is a lesbian friend of mine and she's wonderful, her and her gf are couple goals (and yes this person knows I'm trans and I've never shamed her for not being attracted to trans people, that would be v rude). If anything I am a little biased against older people because they're the ones most responsible for the lack of action on climate change today that my generation is going to have to deal with.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for responding. But since you admit you are "pretty young" and that you have no evidence whatsoever for claiming that there was "a panic about lesbian women in women's locker rooms" in the past, I really have to wonder: how is it that you can so comfortably and confidently say things that malign entire generations of older women? What do you think gives you the right to do this?

Do you think badmouthing entire generations of women like this really helps convince other people that you are a woman yourself, that you know what it's like to be a woman, and you have women's best interests at heart?

One of my favorite people is a lesbian friend of mine and she's wonderful, her and her gf are couple goals (and yes this person knows I'm trans and I've never shamed her for not being attracted to trans people, that would be v rude).

You really think that because you say one of your fave people is a lesbian, and you've never shamed her for not dating or bedding males, it means you're not homophobic against lesbians? Oy vey.

If you want to slag off older generations for climate change, have at it. But please stop spreading total lies about entire generations of older women that paint us all as horrible homophobes who had special hostility towards and were in a panic about lesbians. I actually think earlier generations were generally less homophobic and more accepting of diversity and nonconformity that younger people who've bought into and are peddling gender identity nonsense.

For a picture of what the past was like, watch the movie "Silkwood," based on the true story of anti-nuclear activist Karen Silkwood, who died in 1979 on her way to meet a NY Times reporter with information about nefarious doings in the nuclear waste industry. In the movie, Silkwood, played by Meryl Streep, shares a house with her boyfriend played by Kurt Russell and her best friend, a lesbian named Dolly played by Cher. Neither Silkwood nor her BF or anyone else in the movie has any problem with Dolly being a lesbian. Dolly is presented as a person who is as normal and as quirky as everyone else in the movie. The woman Dolly has a love affair with, a hairdresser played by Diana Scarwid, is like a zillion other "ordinary" women. No one in the film finds them odd or is in a panic about them being around or using women's change rooms. In the 1970s most women had no problem with lesbians. And there were lots of lesbians out and about back then.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Teams share a common goal. It is not possible for transwomen to be on the same team as the very women they call genital fetishists and bigots and other assorted homophobia. It is not possible for transwomen demanding by access to womens amenities and services to be on the same team as women who require male-free spaces and services.

What common goals do you think a transwoman has with a woman?