GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

You can’t ever really understand what it is to be a woman

What would it take? No two women have the same perspective and experiences, there are women who do not menstruate, who cannot have children, who have an intersex condition. They're still women. There are surely a very small few who by chance or a superbly safe environment largely escape male violence as children and are suddenly exposed to it as adults.

People's perspectives can change, it's super bioessentialist to say that people born a certain way can only ever have certain mental states and cannot ever understand someone else's perspective. Yeah I do not know what it is like to be raised female but there isn't some universal ideal there, I just had a weird and uncharacteristic childhood. I didn't choose that, I am trying to unlearn and forget and focus on what I actually have chosen. What I experience now is more in line with women than it is with men, men simply aren't bothered by the same concerns I have. If I have to reverse engineer influences on my brain to feel "the right way" that you think women should feel then I will eventually do that it's just a matter of time.

Men get harassed. This is a thing that happens. What specific thing can TW experience that only women experience

Men don't get harassed on the basis of being women. We do. Men don't know I'm trans when they harass me, or talk over me at work. These are all things that my women coworkers also go through.

Men don't even have solidarity with each other, they don't need to; they certainly don't have solidarity with trans women. They either treat us as freaks or tools to fuck or laugh at. I am not a freak or a tool and I relate to the thousands of women before me who have been treated that way.

You choose not to. You can literally opt out of being treated like a woman if you admit you aren’t one. I get why you won’t, but you have that option. Women don’t.

I choose not to because I shouldn't have to be a man to escape shitty treatment, that shitty treatment is exactly the problem! And you do have that option, but I get why you won't. You shouldn't have to. Yeah, trans men do not escape all misogyny, especially medical, but it does lessen one's exposure from what I've heard talking to them.

influx of people siding with you has already passed. That’s proven by the statistic I referenced and others that show a decline annually.

Well trans people are not going away, I don't know exactly what you hope to accomplish. If I'm going to get thrown in jail for taking hrt or wearing a bra someday then it'd be pretty clear to me who's in the right and wrong.

There's no combination of words I could possibly type that would ever prove it to you. It's pointless for me to try. I could change every cell and structure in my body and I'd still have some "male essence" according to y'all. There are women as steadfast in their beliefs as I am in line. You don't call them stereotypically male, you wouldn't ask them to prove to you that say, male violence is bad. I know myself.

Unless you don’t actually pass as well as you think you do.

I pass to nearly everyone except myself. That's just how it is because I'm usually incapable of seeing myself in a positive light. I'm only confident because of what others tell me and the lack of any incident.

inability of trans people to prove the things they claim.

We just don't operate in the same framework at all. I cannot and will not define myself by my biology or sex, you seemingly cannot or will not define me by my social experiences.

Pee where ever else you have to to do that.

There is nowhere else...

Tell the little boy I referenced that safety and comfort are subjective, then

No, I'll tell her she should do what makes her comfortable.

Why should his feelings outweigh the feelings of multiple girls in his school?

No one's feelings outweigh anyone else's, it is everyone's choice what bathroom they want to use or not use. if people don't want to use the same bathroom as a trans person, that is for them to figure out.

Who made it the way it is

I know representation is not always the best but I'd hope that the committee decided was at least half women...and the committee or organization that decide are experts, it's their job to dictate to people who are not as knowledgeable. I'm not knowledgeable or neither are you so idk why we should be on the panel making the rules.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

You know what? It’s been explained so many times by multiple women and you just can’t listen because it’s not what you want to hear. It takes being a female. You’re not a female. It’s super fucking simple. Women who don’t or can’t menstruate can’t for a reason and all women understand the fear of a missed period or concern of not having ever gotten a period because we are supposed to menstruate. It means something is going on with our bodies. Something usually tied directly to being female. You don’t get your period because you’re a man. That’s not a thing women can relate to. No woman doesn’t get a period because she’s a man. You will never know what it is to be a female and fortunately for you you will never know how fucking insulting all of your comments are to women. Stop trying to force yourself into womanhood. you can’t, and it makes you seem grossly misogynistic and shows how little you truly understand anything about women. Stop. Please. Goddamn. I’d never try to speak on what it means to be trans because it’s not something I understand. But somehow a TW can know what it means to be a woman? It’s ridiculous.

Again, men get harassed. By other men.or women. They get talked over. By other men. Or women. Women aren’t women because we get harassed or talked over by men. Are the women who talk over other women or even harass other women now men? You make no sense and you sound desperate as fuck. Nobody is a woman or a man based on whether they get harassed or do the harassing.

Trans people can stay I don’t give a fuck just leave everyone else and female spaces alone. Use whatever false language you want to and express whatever misogynistic views you obviously believe- just leave everyone else and female spaces the fuck alone because if other TW think like you I don’t want them anywhere near me ever.

There is nothing you can do or say to not make you an obvious man with an obviously male mentality, no there isnt. When you can change your cells and gametes and chromosomes and organs and skeleton and brain to have none of those things indicate you’re male then sure you’ll be a woman. Nothing less will work. You will be a man LARPing as a woman until then. That’s just how it be.

Even if you do pass the things you say probably give you away if you talk irl the way you type here.

I don’t need you to prove male violence is bad it just has nothing to do with being a woman. And it’s not your views on male violence that show your obvious male way of thinking. The male violence stuff just seems like you grasping at straws.

You don’t have a framework. You base your womanhood on your narcissism and dysphoria. I base your lack of womanhood on biology and reality.

If there’s nowhere else you should still leave female spaces the fuck alone because you’re actually kind of creepy despite saying that you’re safe for us to be forced to share spaces with. Seriously I can’t imagine invading a space where I know I’m not wanted and that I know makes others uncomfortable. Especially a space not meant for me in the first place. Let alone doing it routinely. Jesus. I can’t imagine telling a group of people who have nothing in common with me thst just because I want it so badly, I’m a part of that group. So fucking invasive and disrespectful.

Of course you’d tell a little boy that his feelings matter more than little girls. Male solidarity and what not lol

You can’t say in one sentence that no one’s feelings matter more than another’s after saying you’d tell that boy that he should disregard all the girls at his school lol. Hypocrite much?

I am knowledgeable lmao. And lia is a manly man who looks and is built like the man he is so he shouldn’t have been allowed if women have equality.

I honestly have to end this particular thread because you’re too much here. I can only deal with so much misogyny from a male claiming to be a woman before I get rude and frustrated so I’m backing off. It’s truly equal parts hilarious and terrifying that someone who thinks like this thinks they’re a woman.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

You will never know what it is to be a female

Mm, bet. I'll still be trying, it's just on medical science to catch up.

But somehow a TW can know what it means to be a woman?

I don't know what it's like to be you, or female, just what it's like to be my current self and how others perceive me. I can't just stop my dysphoria it's not how it works it's just part of me.

Nobody is a woman or a man based on whether they get harassed or do the harassing.

I didn't mean to imply this, I'm sorry. People are men or women regardless, I was talking about things that trans women have in common.

just leave everyone else and female spaces the fuck alone

I've never gone into a space where it's been specifically made clear I'm not wanted or where I can infer it. Like I wouldn't join a club for women and when I needed a place to stay because of DV I sheltered at a friend's. I only decided to use the bathroom after women friends of mine kept insisting.

What does "leave everyone else" alone mean in this context though like you already know I'm stealth irl?

sure you’ll be a woman

Okay yeah I'll be sure to let you know I want to do all of those things

Even if you do pass the things you say probably give you away if you talk irl the way you type here.

🙄 1. I don't talk the same I'm way less talkative 2. You are just trying to make me feel bad

You don’t have a framework. You base your womanhood on your narcissism and dysphoria.

I had a neuropsych eval to try and find out if I was npd because my mom likely is but unfortunately for ppl throwing this accusation around at any and all trans people, I'm just a weird anxious young adult with gender dysphoria. But yeah my framework is just based on what someone says they are.

Seriously I can’t imagine invading a space where I know I’m not wanted

I don't do this though I literally only started using any public bathrooms because every single person around me told me I was being ridiculous and that it would be fine?? Like im hyperaware and terrified of upsetting someone but there's never been an issue and I can't just go back to holding it, and I can't make myself use the men's room. Like imagine how that would be at work, none of my coworkers know I'm trans so when I'm at the office where am I supposed to pee?

I need to use the bathroom to be able to live publically. I don't need to join other spaces especially when ppl in that space have said or implied they wouldn't want me there. There just isn't any consensus like that for public bathrooms.

Idk it seems like you think I just barge in anywhere and everywhere and that's not the case whatsoever.

You can’t say in one sentence that no one’s feelings matter more than another’s after saying you’d tell that boy that he should disregard all the girls at his school lol. Hypocrite much?

Idk how it's hypocritical when I literally said every person should decide what bathroom they want to use without being restricted by others.

Of course you’d tell a little boy that his feelings matter more than little girls. Male solidarity and what not lol

The kid's gender isn't the point I'd say a trans boy should be able to use the bathroom he wants to too.

I am knowledgeable lmao

Okay I will take your word for it. You should be helping make the decisions then. Do you have to misgender Lia or me though?

I mean this whole post and a lot of the thread is just you misgendering me and all that. You'd probably be more rude if the sub didn't have rules idk. I'm sorry if I'm frustrating to talk to. I don't wish you banned or anything.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

  1. You will not be a woman. You cannot be a woman. You are not a woman. Like I said it’s getting to be too much so I skimmed a lot of your justifications for calling yourself one because honestly it’s too much

-2. I honestly appreciate that you wouldn’t join a woman’s club and that you went to a friends place instead of a woman’s shelter. Truly. I appreciate that you did that because others wouldn’t have. I still don’t think female bathrooms are for TW

-3. I don’t care about TW wanting to be stealth. So I don’t care about it causing issues at work for you. I just don’t. Sorry.

-4. It’s insane to me to tell one person it’s okay to make everyone else feel uncomfortable. Even children. That boy should be nowhere near female spaces and a girl shouldn’t be in boy spaces. It’s hypocritical to say no one’s feelings matter more than anyone else’s and then say that boy should use female spaces because of his genderfeelz

-5. I never misgendered you. Man is not a gender. I properly sexed you.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You will not be a woman. You cannot be a woman. You are not a woman.

I am and I will be female someday : P

So I don’t care about it causing issues at work for you. I just don’t. Sorry.

Cool then I don't care about whether me maintaining being stealth upsets someone I'm never going to meet sorry

It’s insane to me to tell one person it’s okay to make everyone else feel uncomfortable.

Why are trans people responsible for everyone else's comfort? Surely you wouldn't tell a gay boy or a lesbian girl to not use the bathroom just because some of their classmates are homophobic?

People should use the bathroom they want. If they have a problem with someone else using it then that's on them.

I never misgendered you. Man is not a gender. I properly sexed you.

Awesomely pedantic it's still against the rules although I don't really expect much to ever be done about it because this place is biased against QT ppl and doesn't even have a QT mod.

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Keep hope alive I guess. It’s never gonna happen and it’s honestly kind of comforting in a twisted way to know that no matter what TW take from us, they can’t ever achieve their goal.

Im sure someone will find out and will care and you won’t care that they care but go off

Being a homosexual has nothing to do with this? Gay men are still men and gay women are still women so this is irrelevant. It would be homophobic of someone to not want a member of the same sex to use the correct sex based spaces just because that person is gay. It’s not transphobic to want sex based spaces to be sex based. It’s safeguarding.

You’re not responsible for making everyone feel comfortable. It’s just shitty of you to make people feel uncomfortable in spaces you shouldn’t be in to begin with.

Show me a neutral, reputable source that claims man and woman are genders, and I will apologize for misgendering you and only refer to you as male from here on out. If you can’t, I’ve done nothing wrong.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I'm not taking anything from you I'm just trying to fix myself. To me it's comforting to know that even if I ultimately fail at least I never gave up and that I died never being at peace with what nature wants me to be.

Gay men are still men and gay women are still women so this is irrelevant.

Trans women are still women so ofc it's relevant.

Show me a neutral, reputable source that claims man and woman are genders

Already making it impossible for me, y'all love the dictionary but I know that citing it, or anyone in social sciences who knows that gender exists won't appease you.

Anyway that's not my point. It's still against the rules and is literally in the sidebar. Please just don't refer to me as anything.

Still though, if you say man is an adult human male then that's not me, because I am not an adult male, I never finished male puberty so I am not an "adult".

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

  1. Lmao to almost all of this comment. It’s all been addressed multiple times by multiple people on this post so I’m moving on

-2. So once again you can prove nothing. Shocker.

-3. I’ll call you a boy then, although if you’re over 18 you’re an adult regardless of whether you finished puberty just as you’re a man regardless of how you look or feel

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

So once again you can prove nothing. Shocker.

It's not like there's any proof you'd actually accept lol you just want to be right too.

I’ll call you a boy then, although if you’re over 18 you’re an adult regardless of whether you finished puberty just as you’re a man regardless of how you look or feel

Honestly that's better but it still only describes a biology that I'd rather keep secret and not how my life is at all. It's like telling me I'm brown-haired...like okay? Yeah technically under the dye but everyone thinks I'm blonde. Not sure if I'll ever get why people have to be defined by that in all situations regardless of how they live. What would be the point of calling myself a boy

[–]loveSloaneDebate King 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

Do you have any idea how much I’d rather be wrong?! It would be so much easier for me to accept TW are women. The reason I can’t do that is because it can’t be proven. I’d rather believe it because regardless I have to be effected by it.

Why is it better to be called a boy if a boy is still a male? I just don’t get this.

If You dyed your hair blonde you’re a blonde though? Like not naturally but you can actually truly really have blonde hair. If your roots show people would know it’s not natural but you’d still be blonde? Sex doesn’t work that way, though. I have no problem in theory calling TW transwomen, but when TW call themselves women I stop using the term TW and just call them men. If they can’t just refer to themselves as TW then I’m not going to either, but I’m not going to pretend they are a woman. If you had never called yourself a woman id have never called you a man. I have no issue with using the term transwoman here.