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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

You don't have to believe in anything to recognized that trans people are in the process in or moving towards changing our biology.

I don't really care about arguing based on logic. Emotions are the core of who we are.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

I disagree entirely that emotions are the core of who we are, and that trans people are meaningfully changing their biology.

Cosmetically they can alter some things to a degree, but it isn’t possible to physically become another thing.

I’m unsure what your goal is here if you won’t engage with logic and insist on answering things only from a personal perspective.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

It's very possible, humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals. Hormones control and influence a lot and we are only getting better at changing people's phenotype. The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

It's very possible, humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals. Hormones control and influence a lot and we are only getting better at changing people's phenotype. The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

If humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals, how come that even amongst those in trans community who have gone to the greatest lengths using Big Pharma hormone formulations (and sometimes surgeries) to alter their outward appearance to give the impression they have secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex, only TPs who are biologically female get pregnant and have babies?

If humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals, how come that even amongst those in trans community who have gone to the greatest lengths using Big Pharma hormone formulations (and sometimes surgeries) to alter their outward appearance to give the impression they have secondary sex characteristics of the opposite sex, how come male TPs are winning and setting records in girls' and women's sports but female TPs are not winning and setting records in boys' and men's sports? How come male TPs are bumping girls and women off teams, out of competition, off awards podiums and out of record books - but not a single female TP has done the same to any boys or men? How come numerous male TPs have taken top place and won titles and trophies in women's and girls' sports, but no female TPs have managed to distinguish themselves similarly in men's and boys' sports. Is it because trans boys and trans men don't try as hard as trans girls and trans women?

The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

Yes, some fat can be redistributed, but there is no way to make a male skeleton into a female on, or vice versa. There is no way to change male kidneys into female kidneys. Males who suppress T and take estradiol still have hearts and lungs that are 25-38% and 10-12% larger and more powerful respectively than female people of equivalent height, weight and age - and male twitch fibers, male tendons, male airway cells, male explosiveness. Females who take exogenous testosterone will get deeper voices, facial hair, male-pattern balding and much higher rates of CV disease - but they still will have female pelvises, and thus female Q angles; female hearts, lungs, hands and feet and all the rest.

Also, you don't seem to understand the difference between primary and secondary sex characteristics. Or between outwardly appearing to be something and actually being it. Used to be, learning about Potemkin villages, animals changing coloration, trompe-l'œil, subterfuge, FX in media were standard parts of growing up. Used to be, most people grew up to understand that surface is not substance, illusion and reality are not the same thing, and there's often a major difference between the outer packaging and what's inside. Did you really reach adulthood not learning any of this?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

only TPs who are biologically female get pregnant and have babies?

Pregnancy for trans women is actively being worked on and will eventually be a thing even if I'm too old to get the chance. Also big pharma formulations, u know a lot of dosing is community sourced right? A ton of us are obvi very invested in what we're taking and often it's us telling doctors because many just don't know the standards or the standards are, well, substandard. The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body.

how come male TPs are winning and setting records in girls' and women's sports but female TPs are not winning and setting records in boys' and men's sports? How come male TPs are bumping girls and women off teams, out of competition, off awards podiums and out of record books - but not a single female TP has done the same to any boys or men?

There are trans men in sports too y'all just don't demonize them as much. There was a trans man swimmer that ik of.

Honestly it probably varies by sport and I'm not at all opposed to having different standards for different sports that's actually based on an individual's biology after transitioning.

Yes, some fat can be redistributed, but there is no way to make a male skeleton into a female on, or vice versa

Starting on hrt early enough affects our hip bone growth and fat redistribution goes a long way. And there are upcoming surgeries being done to alter bone structure. Like I was gonna look into getting my leg bones shortened in Ukraine but well, yeah :(

There is no way to change male kidneys into female kidneys

Oh no my kidneys don't pass /j

female Q angles

Lol don't tell me you read that ridiculous transvestigation stuff which is literally the only place I see this term used.

Also everything you said about organs is just averages? I have faith that we'll figure out how to alter a lot of those in time, but I'm mainly dysphoric about stuff on the outside. I'm lucky in that I'm short and have small hands etc, and that I didn't end up with a bad pattern of breast and fat development.

Or between outwardly appearing to be something and actually being it

Yeah, I don't. What's inside me is to me irredeemably disgusting and awful but through transitioning at least the packaging is alright. I just don't show past that layer to most people. Tbh I've been kind of done dating cis people for a while now because they don't get it. Other trans people do though because there's a mutual understanding not to try and peel back the layers.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Cancer cures have been actively worked on for longer than you or I have been alive and yet cancer remains.

Investigation is not a promise, or an assertion of possibility. Snake oil salesmen can actively work on male pregnancy until the sun dies. It won’t make it feasible.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Pregnancy for trans women is actively being worked on and will eventually be a thing

Oh no my kidneys don't pass /j

Huh? How on earth will any TW be able to sustain a pregnancy without female kidney function? No offense, but you seem utterly clueless about what pregnancy involves.

female Q angles

Lol don't tell me you read that ridiculous transvestigation stuff which is literally the only place I see this term used.

Female Q angles are very important to those of us who do or did sports and are female, and who have coached or given sports instruction to female people. Female Q angles are a main reason teen girls and women are especially vulnerable to certain kinds of injuries in sports. My own female Q angles are a main reason I needed surgery in my 20s to correct injuries done to my knees from skiing and running in my youth.

Female Q angles are pretty important in human labor and childbirth too. The scorn and contempt you show regarding female Q angles makes you seem like not just a misogynist, but like a raving MRA. Do you show your own mother and gran such disrespect?

I dunno what "transvestigation" is - never heard of it.

Also everything you said about organs is just averages?

Yes, the stuff I said about organs are just averages. But there are no overlaps between the male and female averages I mentioned. In other words, when I said that male hearts and lungs are 25-38% and 10-12% larger and more powerful than the same organs in females, the bottom on of the male average is still 25% and 10% above the top of the female average.

I have faith that we'll figure out how to alter a lot of those in time, but I'm mainly dysphoric about stuff on the outside.

I think you would benefit a great deal if you considered why your unhappiness is mainly "about stuff on the outside." I think you might feel a lot less "dysphoric" if you stopped focusing and fixating on surface and paid more attention to substance.

Also big pharma formulations, u know a lot of dosing is community sourced right? A ton of us are obvi very invested in what we're taking and often it's us telling doctors because many just don't know the standards or the standards are, well, substandard. The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

Where are the ingredients coming for the "community sourced" hormone formulations you say you and other TW take? Please detail the sourcing and processes that go into their manufacture. Trace the supply chain from start to finish.

The actual hormone I take is bioidentical to what's produced by the body

How do you know? And to whose body exactly are you speaking of when you say it's "biodentical to what's produced by the body"?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I'd probably need medication or dialysis to support my kidneys, if there's no way to cause the usual kidney growth.

Do you show your own mother and gran such disrespect?

My mom has said horrible things to me about me dating a man and about me being trans, for that and other stuff I won't get into I don't respect her. We are barely on speaking terms. Unfortunately my grandmother is dead and I miss her dearly.

The only time I have ever heard Q angles used in the context of trans people is by this infamous Twitter user bevvie112, who non-stop posts about celebrities being secretly trans with the most ludicrous justifications.

But there are no overlaps between the male and female averages I mentioned

Someone could still have a smaller than average heart or maybe shrink it surgically.

fixating on surface and paid more attention to substance.

It doesn't work like that. I am horrified to live in my body inside and out, but at least when I go out people don't look at my internal organs. Their size isn't super relevant to my life.

Where are the ingredients coming for the "community sourced" hormone formulations you say you and other TW take

The people I know buy estradiol raws from China, the precursor to the oil-suspended estradiol that is usually prescribed to trans women. It's not really practical to manufacture raws on our own, it's a synthesization process that starts with purple yams or other phytoestrogens.

How do you know

Most trans people who make that stuff care about quality of product because we support each other. I trust them. It's the same source used to create what's prescribed.

My body. Everyone produces a bit of estradiol unless they have a condition otherwise.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The people I know buy estradiol raws from China, the precursor to the oil-suspended estradiol that is usually prescribed to trans women. It's not really practical to manufacture raws on our own, it's a synthesization process that starts with purple yams or other phytoestrogens.

But you said the hormone formulations TW rely on don't come from Big Pharma. China is Big Pharma. China is the world's single largest supplier of basic chemicals and active pharmaceutical ingredients (APIs) that provide the raw materials for the global pharmaceutical industry. From big industrial factories owned and operated by companies like J & J, Roche, AbbVie, Sanofi, Pfizer, Bristol Meyer, etc to licensed compounding pharmacies to individuals with a chem lab in their garage or a meth lab in their RV - most everyone in the drugs trade nowadays gets their raw materials from China, a country with more than 6000 pharmaceutical companies.

Now China is increasingly focusing on the development and production of finished pharmaceutical products (FPPs), primarily to serve the domestic market - which is the second largest drugs market in the world after the USA - but also with an eye to making FPPs for export. But the new focus on FPPs isn't to supplant China's role as the largest producer of the raw materials for all the makers of FPPs outside of China, it's to supplement it. China wants to keep its position as the main source of APIs and other pharma ingredients as it also produces more and more FPPs.

Today, all of the world's major estrogen products - whether you buy them already in finished form, or as raw materials are made or derived from plants - soybeans or yams - except for Premarin, which still is made from horse urine.

I have a hunch you think that estradiol is the only estrogen women's bodies produce and that "bioidentical estradiol" means the same thing as "natural estradiol." Neither is true. Estradiol is the major estrogen women produce from the ovaries, but it's not the only estrogen we produce.

Also bioidentical estradiol doesn't mean natural; it simply means it has the same molecular structure as the estradiol made by human ovaries. Another name is17β-estradiol.

Everyone produces a bit of estradiol unless they have a condition otherwise.

Yes, this is true. And unless it's coming from ovaries, the most common way that estradiol is made in the human body is by aromatizing either androstenedione into estrone and then converting the estrone into estradiol, or by converting the androstenedione into testosterone and then converting the testosterone into estradiol. The testicles and other sites in the male reproductive tract are a main source of estradiol in males.

Estradiol is produced especially within the follicles of the ovaries, but also in other tissues including the testicles, the adrenal glands, fat, liver, the breasts, and the brain. Estradiol is produced in the body from cholesterol through a series of reactions and intermediates.[10] The major pathway involves the formation of androstenedione, which is then converted by aromatase into estrone and is subsequently converted into estradiol. Alternatively, androstenedione can be converted into testosterone, which can then be converted into estradiol.

The effect of estradiol (and estrogens in general) upon male reproduction is complex.

Estrogens have traditionally been considered female hormones. Nevertheless, the presence of estrogen in males has been known for over 90 years. Initial studies suggested that estrogen was deleterious to male reproduction because exogenous treatments induced developmental abnormalities.

However, demonstrations of estrogen synthesis in the testis and high concentrations of 17β-estradiol in rete testis fluid suggested that the female hormone might have a function in normal male reproduction. Identification of estrogen receptors and development of biological radioisotope methods to assess estradiol binding revealed that the male reproductive tract expresses estrogen receptor extensively from the neonatal period to adulthood.

This indicated a role for estrogens in normal development, especially in efferent ductules, whose epithelium is the first in the male reproductive tract to express estrogen receptor during development and a site of exceedingly high expression. In the 1990s, a paradigm shift occurred in our understanding of estrogen function in the male, ushered in by knockout mouse models where estrogen production or expression of its receptors was not present. These knockout animals revealed that estrogen's main receptor (estrogen receptor 1 [ESR1]) is essential for male fertility and development of efferent ductules, epididymis, and prostate, and that loss of only the membrane fraction of ESR1 was sufficient to induce extensive male reproductive abnormalities and infertility.

This review provides perspectives on the major discoveries and developments that led to our current knowledge of estrogen's importance in the male reproductive tract and shaped our evolving concept of estrogen's physiological role in the male.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6044326/

The only time I have ever heard Q angles used in the context of trans people is by this infamous Twitter user bevvie112,

But the fact that you have never heard about Q angles anywhere else is a reflection on you, not on anyone else. Matters like Q angles come up in many discussions entirely separately to discussions about trans. Not everything is about you and the trans lobby.

Women and our bodies existed and we had issues in sports and other situations due our Q angles long before the current-day trans movement got going and long before males started using gender identity claims to horn in on women's and girls' sports. You seem to think the only reason GC women or anyone else would know about biology, human sex differences and female physiology in particular is so we can refute the claims made by QT and TRAs. Again, not everything is about TW or in reference to TW.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But you said the hormone formulations TW rely on don't come from Big Pharma.

What I meant by that is there isn't a shadow organization pulling strings.

Is there some sort of problem with china making pharmaceutical products? It's possible to buy enough estradiol raws to last someone years, so I'm grateful for that backup plan if I can't ever get my medication through the medical system here.

or as raw materials are made or derived from plants - soybeans or yams

Yeah I mentioned yams too, I've been wanting to try synthesizing it myself with a chemistry-minded friend of mine.

Also bioidentical estradiol doesn't mean natural; it simply means it has the same molecular structure as the estradiol made by human ovaries.

I certainly know estradiol is not the only estrogen humans produce or use in our bodies. But if it has the same molecular structure then it's literally the same thing; who cares if it's natural or not? Not like I could tell the difference.

And unless it's coming from ovaries, the most common way that estradiol is made in the human body is by aromatizing either androstenedione into estrone and then converting the estrone into estradiol, or by converting the androstenedione into testosterone and then converting the testosterone into estradiol. The testicles and other sites in the male reproductive tract are a main source of estradiol in males.

Without regular doses my levels of both would crash to nothing and I get incredibly depressed. My gonads no longer function after years of HRT and I'm happy with that. Ty for the article though!

But the fact that you have never heard about Q angles anywhere else is a reflection on you, not on anyone else

Sorry I was never in sports, I guess? I was a band and dance nerd in school

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Is there some sort of problem with china making pharmaceutical products? It's possible to buy enough estradiol raws to last someone years, so I'm grateful for that backup plan if I can't ever get my medication through the medical system here.

No, no problem. I just was pointing out that you are naive if you think getting stuff from China is somehow avoiding big business and mass manufacturing. You made it sound like TW all are making estradiol from growing your own soybeans in yams in your own yard or buying it from from a craft compounding operation that makes up bespoke formulations from home-grown or artisan ingredients.

Sorry I was never in sports, I guess? I was a band and dance nerd in school

Just because you didn't personally do sports in school means you've never known or noticed any girls or women who did? I've never played American football, basketball or golf, but I've seen quite a few Super Bowls, NBA championships and golf tourneys on TV. I can reel off the names of big sports stars in men's sports that I've never played and never had a chance of playing. I've never competed in the Olympics, but I've watched a lot of Olympics coverage.

Lots of people watch and follow sports they don't do personally. I really don't get this kind of weird world view that you have. Life must be dull if you only pay attention to things that directly affect you personally.

Since you insist you are a woman and you say you have always believed yourself to be female, it seems odd to me that you have so little information and curiosity about female anatomy and physiology. To fill you in: teenage girls and women who do sports have MUCH higher rates of lower limb injuries than males. This is due to physical factors like the changes in ligaments, tendons and muscles over the course of the monthly ovulation-menstruation cycle and the greater Q angle that girls develop as they undergo skeletal growth and their pelvis and hips widen. And it's due to the fact that pretty much all sports training is based on and geared towards male bodies.

Female athletes are at a higher risk for ACL injuries than males. The risk of ACL injuries in female teenage athletes is up to six times higher than in male athletes of the same age, competing in the same sports. The risk of an ACL injury is highest in the 15-19 age groups and among those playing sports such as soccer, volleyball and basketball. The majority of ACL injuries are non-contact injuries resulting from landing from a jump, performing a cutting maneuver, or decelerating suddenly.

One of the biological reasons female athletes are at higher risk is that their hips are wider than males. This characteristic makes them great squatters but puts their Q-angle at a higher degree than males This Q-angle which is about 18 degrees, where as a male’s is about 12 degrees, tends to cause a Valgus position (shown below). Video analysis has shown that during landing, cutting and decelerating movements on occasions when injury occurred, the knee or knees tended to be in (or very close to) full extension; the body’s center of mass was behind and away from the weight bearing limb and the knee was in a valgus position — i.e., with the hip internally rotated and adducted and the tibia externally rotated.

https://demonactivities.com/acl-prevention/

Although the same anatomical and physiological factors that affect girls and women doing sports affect girls and women who dance, in some fields of dance such as traditional ballet the training that girls get starting in childhood is protective:

The increased incidence of anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) injuries in female athletes, particularly in sports like soccer, led to a similar analysis in dancers. The ACL is one of the four critical stabilizing ligaments in the knee, and an injury to it can be devastating, requiring surgical repair and/or 9-12 months of rehabilitation.

Interestingly, the incidence of ACL injury in female ballerinas is relatively low. At the Harkness Center for Dance Injuries, research showed that the jump training young dancers received in traditional ballet programs reduced their risk of such injuries compared to other female athletes. The emphasis on landing a jump with the balls of the feet first promotes a protective knee bend on impact. Indeed, research in female soccer players concurrently revealed that improper landing technique and a quadriceps/hamstring strength imbalance contributed significantly to their higher incidence of ACL injuries versus males. It is now recommended that female athletes learn how to land from a jump correctly (bending the knees to absorb the shock of landing) and undergo directed hamstring strengthening as part of a standard preventative program.

ACL injuries can and do occur in dancers—they are just at lower risk than other female athletes.

https://www.rmaeug.com/danceakp.html

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

There are trans men in sports too y'all just don't demonize them as much. There was a trans man swimmer that ik of.

No one has said there aren't trans identified females who are compenting in sports. We said they are not winning in MEN's sports. I know of a TM swimmer, too: she competes in the WOMEN's category, which is quite common among female athletes who identify as "men" or "non-binary". Funny how they are eager to compete against men unlike TW, who are eager to compete against women. I wonder why that could be...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wow it's almost like trans men identify as men and trans women identify as women. I think there'll be more trans man athletes over time, testosterone could very well allow some to compete against cis men in many sports.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

testosterone could very well allow some to compete against cis men in many sports.

We know this isn't true because of widespread doping that's occurred in sports over many decades. The GDR in particular ran a program in the 1960s, 70s and 80s in which large numbers of female athletes took exogenous testosterone regularly throughout their tween, teen and adult years. The androgenized female athletes won all the top prizes and broke records in many women's events such as Olympic swimming, but they never came close to performing anywhere near the levels of the elite males in their sports.

Florence Griffith Joyner was believed to have been doping on androgens when she set her world records in women's sprints in the 1980s. For 33 years, no female broke her records in the 100m or 200m. But since the year 2000 alone, more than 3,600 males have run faster than her 100m record.

https://twitter.com/fondofbeetles/status/1156542238777851904?lang=en

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wow it's almost like trans men identify as men and trans women identify as women.

And despite that both "transwomen" AND "transmen" are competing in the WOMEN's categories.