GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It is impossible to consent to the complications since they are unknown.

What makes it acceptable for people to potentially die, and to face unknown surgery, for a procedure that will never be medically necessary?

How many lives would be worth losing for the perfect rhinoplasty to be developed?

Ethics should be based on causing the maximum amount of good while preventing further harm and reducing harm where possible.

I don’t think any teenager should be undergoing experimental surgery unless they are sure to die from a disease, disorder, or injury, and the procedure has a reasonable chance to help, without foreseeably causing additional injury, disorder, or disease.

This would not include any attempt to reconfigure the child’s genitals.

Bodily autonomy has limits. It does not mean freedom to do anything one pleases without consequence or regard for others.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It is impossible to consent to the complications since they are unknown.

What? You can consent to riding a rollercoaster or going skydiving right?

Many of us are so desperate that we will consent to any and all side effects if there's a chance of it going right.

What makes it acceptable for people to potentially die, and to face unknown surgery, for a procedure that will never be medically necessary?

Clearly it was pretty medically necessary to them if they went through it that early?

How many lives would be worth losing for the perfect rhinoplasty to be developed?

As many people as are willing to try

Ethics should be based on causing the maximum amount of good while preventing further harm and reducing harm where possible.

What does harm mean? Is it universal? We def agree that like killing someone is harm, but sometimes it's not always clear. If I couldn't access hormones that would cause me harm, physical and mental health issues, even if taking them is "harming" aspects of my natural body like fertility.

Bodily autonomy has limits. It does not mean freedom to do anything one pleases without consequence or regard for others.

It means the freedom to do whatever one wishes to your own body?

That freedom can't be withheld; we will do it ourselves if we can't get it done above the table. Who should decide my body's limits?

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What? You can consent to riding a rollercoaster or going skydiving right?

In the USA, to go skydiving with a professional, properly-insured skydiving operation you have to be 18.

Jazz Jennings was 11 when Jazz's parents put the child on "puberty blockers" and 17 when they had Jazz undergo genital surgeries.

The rules for roller coasters vary, but most roller coasters require riders to have reached a certain height. All prohibit adults from riding if we are wearing a sling, snuggy or other kind carrier on our chests, hips or backs with a baby or young child in it. Some roller coasters require smaller-height children to be accompanied by an adult.

All sports activities and amusement parks practice various kinds of gatekeeping for safety reasons. None of them have the total lack of precautionary restrictions the way you are implying.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, because we know what will happen if it fails, are informed what safety procedures are in place and how effective they are, exactly what to expect, exactly what signals something is wrong, and what steps have proven to best protect you in the event of failure.

An experimental surgery, none of that is known. That’s a dreadful comparison.

Use the dictionary definition of harm even though you might not feel that it’s correct.

So, fifty kids? A million? Acceptable deaths as long as one person wealthy enough for it gets the nose of their dreams?

If beris wouldn’t freak the fuck out, I’d question how much empathy is to be found in that statement.

So I have the bodily autonomy to place my body the oncology ward while I have the flu and violent diarrhoea? That’s allowed? That’s morally fine?

We all have the bodily autonomy to just get totally naked and loudly masturbate in the middle of the shopping center? That’s morally acceptable? Legally acceptable?

We can board any plane, lick the Mona Lisa until the paint is gone, shake a baby, any damn thing possible with our bodies? And that’s both legal and moral?

Really?

People who have realistic knowledge of what will and won’t kill you should probably decide your bodies limits.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Use the dictionary definition of harm even though you might not feel that it’s correct.

The dictionary defines it as "being physically injured" which still seems very subjective and personal.

An experimental surgery, none of that is known

Well everything was once experimental and someone had to take a leap of faith.

So, fifty kids? A million? Acceptable deaths as long as one person wealthy enough for it gets the nose of their dreams?

It shouldn't just be the wealthy but I think a lot of people who died would be happy to know that someone finally got what they wanted. I don't want people to die, but if people doing what they want will kill them, I still support them doing what they want.

So I have the bodily autonomy to place my body the oncology ward while I have the flu and violent diarrhoea? That’s allowed? That’s morally fine?

This and the getting naked thing are kinda public, no? autonomy ends where another person begins. Personal and medical autonomy--if you can find a surgeon or doctor to do it for you, you should be able to do it

People who have realistic knowledge of what will and won’t kill you should probably decide your bodies limits.

Nah it should be my right and decision to do something that might kill me.

lick the Mona Lisa until the paint is gone

Tbh this one sounds cool and pretty harmless yeah I agree.

I guess I should have clarified I meant things you can do to your body that don't involve, yk, literally getting naked in public. There will probably always be doctors willing to do experimental surgery at least

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It’s not very subjective medically. This is yet another example of why it is nonsensical and useless to act as though feelings surmount the importance of physical reality, objectively defined.

You think people would be happy to die so some random with a complex can have a nose they think is better looking? That disturbs me, deeply. This is not how most people think, at all. Do you understand that it’s not exactly..usual to suggest that thousands of people would happily die because someone in the future might be happy.

You’re essentially saying people are happy to die for someone else to feel a little bit better. How can you possibly know this? Why do you think it?

Female specific amenities like toilets are public as well but you have repeatedly stated that males should be allowed to infringe on the rights of females by accessing them if they feel like it.

Why is it ok to do one in public and not the other? Clearly bodily autonomy doesn’t actually mean total freedom to do anything one wants with their body.

Can you explain what you actually think it means?

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It’s not very subjective medically. This is yet another example of why it is nonsensical and useless to act as though feelings surmount the importance of physical reality, objectively defined.

So you think that everything you think is harmful to you must be to everyone, then?

You think people would be happy to die so some random with a complex can have a nose they think is better looking?

Yeah, I would, especially if it was for a future trans person to be happy.

Why is it ok to do one in public and not the other?

Using the bathroom doesn't disrupt anyone else's autonomy

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, I think physical harm is something that can be objectively measured by people who understand the human body. It’s certainly not up to anyone who thinks their hearts can be surgically shrunk to match their gender feels.

I am not the one who is saying my feelings should dictate how the world works.

It’s a public space so actually, males using that space does disrupt female autonomy. Male autonomy ends at the door to allow female autonomy in the public space. Have a look at the history of the womens public toilet. You’ll find they are crucial to working outside the home and engaging in the public sphere.

I’d like to assure you that it is extremely atypical, and could be perceived as pathologically lacking care for others to claim you support people dying for the perfection of cosmetic surgery.

This is something perhaps better discussed with someone qualified to break down and explain to you exactly why this is bizarre and harmful.