GC: How would you react if you saw a trans woman in the women's restroom?

submitted by GenderbenderShe/her/hers from self.GCdebatesQT

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[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

You don't have to believe in anything to recognized that trans people are in the process in or moving towards changing our biology.

I don't really care about arguing based on logic. Emotions are the core of who we are.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (37 children)

I disagree entirely that emotions are the core of who we are, and that trans people are meaningfully changing their biology.

Cosmetically they can alter some things to a degree, but it isn’t possible to physically become another thing.

I’m unsure what your goal is here if you won’t engage with logic and insist on answering things only from a personal perspective.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (36 children)

It's very possible, humans are not as sexually dimorphic as many other mammals. Hormones control and influence a lot and we are only getting better at changing people's phenotype. The shape of people's bodies, our sex characteristics, the hormones we run on, that's all biology, all changeable to a growing extent.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (35 children)

Repeating your beliefs and opinions to me as though they were fact is convincing you, far more than me or any other reader, imo.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (34 children)

What about what I just said is not factual

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (33 children)

Sex characteristics are not resexed, complications from surgery are common, results are frequently insensate or painful, and I am yet to see a single example of reconfigured genitals that are not very obviously unnatural.

Hormones change a few of over 2000 physical differences between males and females. A bit of hair and a minor redistribution of fat dependent on a permanent regime of exogenous hormones is not a biological change, so much as a cosmetic deliberate causing of inducing hormone disorders.

A snake oil salesmen has convinced you of organ transplants that will facilitate male pregnancy and birth because they can profit from promising this is right around the corner and in the meantime they’d be happy to offer FFS for the life savings of the average applicant.

This does not mean it will actually be achieved.

Altering phenotypes improving all the time is an opinion. Experimental surgery to treat mental anguish gaining acceptance, popularity, and guineapigs being good is your opinion.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

Sex characteristics are not resexed

I have breasts and the shape of lots of things from my face to my feet changed. I don't want to talk about my sex life, but last I checked breasts were a secondary sex characteristic differs between men and women.

I am yet to see a single example of reconfigured genitals that are not very obviously unnatural

Ever think those content with their results don't want you looking at them? If you get your examples from that awful botched SRS sub or similar then ofc you'd think this.

Also, most surgery pics circulated are from right after it was done so ofc they will bad, it's still healing.

they’d be happy to offer FFS for the life savings of the average applicant.

All the more reason for trans people's care to be more in the hands of trans people so that we don't have to rely on random doctors without our best interests. I will pay to get FFS because I can't do the surgery myself, but yes it is frustrating.

so much as a cosmetic deliberate causing of inducing hormone disorders.

Yeah it's deliberate, no it is not a disorder. My hormone levels are probably more stable than yours or anyone else who produces their sex hormones endogenously. I feel and am fine with my new levels

Compare trans care now to trans care 80 years ago. We used to have to rely on horse estrogen. And it's undeniable that in the last few decades more and more SRS surgeons have popped up to serve community need. Surgery is kinda inherently phenotypical change, and the techniques for vaginoplasty have been improving that's just the truth.

It's hardly experimental when SRS was first performed almost a century ago.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

You having either breast implants or induced gynemastica does not mean that humanity has succeeded in altering human sexual dimorphism.

If they wanted their results private they surely would not have uploaded them to public imgur albums and Reddit and their personal blogs, often with statements about how excited they are to share. Have you ever looked at the transgender surgery subreddits?

I am concerned that all you take away from someone selling you a lie like male pregnancy is that it’s frustrating that they are the only person who can charge you exorbitant fees for minor results.

Transgender people are not prevented from becoming cosmetic surgeons, so the numbers of transgender surgeons available is an internal fight for y’all to have.

A disorder is not defined by how you feel about it, so I am not going to pretend that excess female hormones in any male body is healthy function. I’m glad you don’t feel unwell but it is only health to someone with a very distorted perception of the concept.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (17 children)

I have neither implants nor gynecomastia. They're just breasts. I can link the study showing that trans women's breasts were identical on the tissue level to other women's if you want? During the course of a scare I had with a lump in my breast my doctor confirmed to me that it was just lobular growth and totally normal, no one had told me that would happen but it was very relieving.

Have you ever looked at the transgender surgery subreddits?

I used to hateread the awful old sub that would say the worst stuff about people's results. I just don't put much stock in how results look right after surgery, when everything is healing. At this point, I also am starting to not care if the results aren't perfect as long as they are close enough and not obvious (I date men and men r likely to be more clueless on whether my genitalia look right)

I am concerned that all you take away from someone selling you a lie like male pregnancy

No I firmly believe it will happen eventually I just think I'll be old by the time they have it working. Which sucks, I would volunteer for it if I got the chance though.

Transgender people are not prevented from becoming cosmetic surgeons

The majority of trans people live in poverty, we make way less per dollar on average than people who aren't trans. I agree that should change and I'd love to see more trans surgeons.

A disorder is not defined by how you feel about it, so I am not going to pretend that excess female hormones in any male body is healthy function

This is exactly my problem with GC ideology I guess. You can literally never see something as existing on its own or any exceptions to what you see as sacred, immutable biological sex. Like to you, me having breasts would be defined as gyno regardless of the fact that my breasts are fully developed and could produce milk, merely because they are attached to someone who's amab. It's absurd, like, you can think I'm male if you want but please acknowledge my body parts and hormones by how they actually are. In someone who isn't trans my levels would be a disorder because they would be in distress. For me, it was the other way around.

You can't just impose your idea of what is healthy onto everyone. We all have slightly different ideas of health, to me having my hormones managed exogenously is completely okay.

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

In males, female appearing breasts may indicate the following;

Hypogonadism. Conditions that lower testosterone production, such as Klinefelter syndrome or pituitary insufficiency, can be associated with gynecomastia. Aging. Hormone changes that occur with aging can cause gynecomastia, especially in men who are overweight. Tumors. Some tumors, such as those involving the testes, adrenal glands or pituitary gland, can produce hormones that alter the male-female hormone balance. Hyperthyroidism. In this condition, the thyroid gland produces too much of the hormone thyroxine. Kidney failure. About half the people being treated with dialysis experience gynecomastia due to hormonal changes. Liver failure and cirrhosis. Changes in hormone levels related to liver problems and cirrhosis medications are associated with gynecomastia. Malnutrition and starvation. When your body is deprived of adequate nutrition, testosterone levels drop while estrogen levels remain the same, causing a hormonal imbalance. Gynecomastia can also happen when normal nutrition resumes.

In females breast development indicates healthy development and hormonal balance.

This article explains some differences,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5010345/ Such as the distinct lack of lobules. There is no evidence that estrogen causes the formation of lobules. There are mountains of evidence that the growth of breast tissue in males with excess estrogen is gynecomastia.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Oh, another thing. If by experimental surgery you mean SRS and you don't want us to be able to get SRS, why do other GCers also insist that trans women who don't get SRS are more dangerous or aren't really trans or have a fetish? Do y'all want us to get surgery or not?

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

I mean experimental surgery like the “patchwork” technique developed on Jazz Jennings, the abdominal pull-down phalloplasty, surgeries intended to reduce or enlarge the hips or long bones, radical craniofacial techniques in Korea, tilapia grafts for vaginoplasty, and many other experimental gender related surgeries.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Pretty much all of that sounds really fantastic to me. I long for the day when the right set of procedures is found and there isn't so much confusion and experimentation, but I live too early for that I think.

Idk, I guess I just don't really care about my body being experimented on in certain areas. I was breaking down boxes today and almost cut myself because I was just wearing shorts, and I had to remember to remind myself that oh I should probably not do that. I'm very strongly disassociated from my genitalia being a part of me so changing that area with surgery doesn't scare me

[–]HouseplantWomen who disagree with QT are a different sex 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The experiments aren’t happening to you though. What does it matter how you feel about an experimental surgery happening to jazz Jennings? Ethics aren’t based on just derrples feelings.

Do you really want to say that it’s okay for surgeons to perform experiments on transgender patients based on you feeling like you would be ok with being the patient?